Free will vs Predestination

SkyWriting said:

Only God knows who is who. You don't.

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And? Nothing you or I can do will change their fate. Thus, not knowing doesn't matter.

Nothing matters. We are all just barbie dolls.

renniks said:

Does knowing equal causation? Depends what you mean by God planning. God knows what he will do in reaction to what people do, in fact, you could say he has always known, because as far as we know, time doesn't exist for him. But, we have to go with what scripture says, instead of our speculations about how God operates, and he says he regrets things, he says he changes his mind and he says that what we do changes things. There is mystery involved, for sure, but foreknowing doesn't mean our fates are deciding without our input. That's fatalism, not Christianity.

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Can anything happen at all that God has not willed? Does any entity have the power to refuse God's Will? Does any entity have the ability to do something that God wills against?

SayaOtonashi said:

What’s the point of trying to save people if people’s fate is decided?

than again God had allowed his choice people to looked into sodom to see if any good people in there or stopped to allow his people to change. Even those God doesn’t change his mind. So I’m a little confused

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I notice you are a Methodist? Here's a Methodist approach to explaining it. God looked down through time and saw a ruined mass of humanity not worth saving. But because he is Love personified, he scooped up a batch of worthless beings, paid for their sins on the cross, and restored them to life in the new birth. Now he finishes the job by getting the gospel to them so they can learn about him. And learn how to live a holy life.

Dave L said:

I notice you are a Methodist? Here's a Methodist approach to explaining it. God looked down through time and saw a ruined mass of humanity not worth saving. But because he is Love personified, he scooped up a batch of worthless beings, paid for their sins on the cross, and restored them to life in the new birth. Now he finishes the job by getting the gospel to them so they can learn about him. And learn how to live a holy life.

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And, since it's all predestined, everything that everyone does is just a puppet show.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

And, since it's all predestined, everything that everyone does is just a puppet show.

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Sort of. But God forms Christ in us through the experiences he predestined us to go through.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

Can anything happen at all that God has not willed? Does any entity have the power to refuse God's Will? Does any entity have the ability to do something that God wills against?

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According to God, all kinds of stuff happens that he didn't will. He said it never entered his mind that his people would sacrifice their children to idols for example. So, yeah, any human being and also the angels had free will to do what God did not will. The whole Bible assumes this to be true and makes no sense otherwise.

Everyone seems to try to prove that it’s either predestination or free will. One or the other. Black or white.

We try to make our simple minds understand the mind and will of God so we make it one or the other.

I believe that God’s mind is so vastly superior to ours that it cannot be understood perfectly. We can only understand either/or but we can’t grasp both. I believe, but do not fully understand, both.

I believe God called me. I believe he knew I would accept. He knows every cell in my brain and my heart. Was I predestined? I could have said “No thanks”, but God knew there was no way I would.

Does foreknowledge mean predestination?

If I give my youngest daughter the choice of sushi or Mac n cheese for dinner, I know what she’ll pick. The choice is entirely hers but there is no way she’s picking sushi. Did I make her pick? No. Was I 110% sure she would pick macaroni? Yes. I didn’t make her pick, but the outcome was sure before the plates hit the table.

SayaOtonashi said:

What’s the point of trying to save people if people’s fate is decided?

than again God had allowed his choice people to looked into sodom to see if any good people in there or stopped to allow his people to change. Even those God doesn’t change his mind. So I’m a little confused

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This might be helpful to you~~~> https://d3uet6ae1sqvww.cloudfront.n...ds-choice-or-ours-predestination-election.pdf

renniks said:

According to God, all kinds of stuff happens that he didn't will. He said it never entered his mind that his people would sacrifice their children to idols for example. So, yeah, any human being and also the angels had free will to do what God did not will. The whole Bible assumes this to be true and makes no sense otherwise.

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Well, golly, what about all that predestination that Jesus Calvin says we have to believe?

BryanJohnMaloney said:

Well, golly, what about all that predestination that Jesus Calvin says we have to believe?

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We are predestined to be changed if we have accepted Christ, not predestined to salvation.

renniks said:

We are predestined to be changed if we have accepted Christ, not predestined to salvation.

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But we don't have a choice whether or not we accept Christ, right? There is no "if" about it. We are nothing but barbie dolls, helpless puppets.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

But we don't have a choice whether or not we accept Christ, right? There is no "if" about it. We are nothing but barbie dolls, helpless puppets.

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Of course we have a choice.
IF you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord you will be saved.

renniks said:

Of course we have a choice.
IF you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord you will be saved.

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So, there is no predestination.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

So, there is no predestination.

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What does it mean to be predestined? It means God had a plan for you ahead of time. And what is the plan? It is to be conformed to the image of His Son.
That's it in a nutshell. Not a plan to pick some and reject others, but a plan to change all that accept him into what they were supposed to be. To bring out God's image in them.

SayaOtonashi said:

What’s the point of trying to save people if people’s fate is decided?

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The fate may be decided, but how long it takes to reach that fate is not. We are walking in darkness, homeless broke and ashamed. All while the father has a bank account with our names on it and unlimited funds.....and do not know where it is or how to get to it.

Would you not want to be pointed in the right direction so that you can get out of darkness, sooner rather than later?

Your question is common. One of the most frequently occurring problems in discussions between monergists and synergists is each often gets their own position incorrect! Many self-styled Amrinians, for example, are more accurately Wesleyan. This problem then gets exacerbated because we don't correctly understand the others' positions, either.

Calvinism is not determinism. This is a commonly held belief but it is a straw man. The Westminster Confission Article 3.2 states what God ordained from eternity he did without being the author of sin, without causing violence to human will and without causing violence to the liberty or contingency of secondary causes. In other words, the Calvinist view of creation is such that...

1) God did not author sin,
2) Humans have (limied) free will (that is now corrupted by sin,
3) Secondary causes exist.

People's fate was decided by sin. In the debate over whether or not God is running a puppet show folks forget the tyranny of sin. It doesn't ask your permission and it is not selective; it corrupts everything about us. Everyone was once dead in sin. Those now dead to sin and dead in Christ (and thereby alive in Christ) are saved by grace through faith for works, works God already had planned for us to perform in advance.

As, as another poster astutely observed we don't save anyone. God saves. We preach Christ crucified and resurrected because we have no clue who God will or won't save. God knows.

renniks said:

Why do you think that people's fate is decided? According to scripture God was planning to destroy the Ninivites, but when they repe filezilla uc browser rufus nted he changed his mind.

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than again God had allowed his choice people to looked into sodom to see if any good people in there or stopped to allow his people to change. Even those God doesn’t change his mind. So I’m a little confused