When did Christ descend from heaven then ascend back to heaven before His crucifiction?

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Phil W said:
He did descend before His ascension, at His birth.
Time line:
Heaven, as the Word,
Earth, at His birth from Mary,
His ascension back to heaven, after His resurrection from the dead.

Yes creation would be another possibility.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Anguspure said:
It seems to me that this passage is more likely a reference to post resurrection events.

The Son of Man ascended immediately following His resurrection:

Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her. John 20

Then He descends again:

Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him. Luke 24

Then He ascends once more:

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God. Luke 24

All of this takes place after John 3. In John 3 He said

“No one has ascended (past tense) into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the first to be resurrected from the dead in the flesh and ascended to the right hand of the Father. Before that He appeared several times. One major appearance was in the form of Melchizedek. He is "I AM".

After further study I think that Hebrews 7 indicates a distinction between Jesus and Melchizedek indicating that they are two separate beings.

“Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I don’t believe Jesus was incarnated before Mary and if Jesus was Melchizedek it wouldn’t be correct to say that a Melchizedek was made like the Son of God if he were the Son of God.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Norbert L said:
There are NT manuscripts that translate into, "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 NLV,ESV,NET etc.

Also given that second temple theology among the Jews was divided as the disagreement between the Pharisees and Sadducees shows in Acts of the Apostles 23:8, it is fair to assume that it's not the only place where they had different theological views. These other topics are not as obvious and some of them would be extremely important like the Godhead.

Basically how can "monotheistic" Jews of that time period worship Jesus Matthew 14:33. They knew prophets performed miracles and they didn't worship them.

One explanation found in both Christian and Jewish scholarship (Today's Judaism considers this as a heresy present at that time) is some Jews accepted two Persons of Yahweh. That the angel of Yahweh was also Yahweh in a physical body on Earth who was interacting with their patriarchs and prophets. A second Person who would be co-present with Yahweh in Heaven Genesis 19:24. There are more OT passages that indicate similar things.

This is how some Christians make sense of where you find Jesus in the OT scriptures ascending and descending multiple times prior to His incarnation. A more involved lecture on the topic in video form is found here:

I would think that Genesis 1:26 would also be an indication to the Jews that God was not alone in the creation process.

ViaCrucis · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That explains that He descended but not that He has already ascended previously. The indication I see here is that He had descended and ascended back to heaven before His incarnation.

He didn't ascend previously. He descended in the Incarnation, and He ascended after His resurrection, that's what the passage means.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
But He says no one has ascended except the one who has descended. This means that He has ascended before His incarnation which happened before His resurrection. I don’t think it is inconceivable that Jesus had not descended before His incarnation.

You're reading more into the statement then is there. "No one has ascended" refers to anyone previously, the one to ascend will be Christ, the One who descended in the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

Bible Highlighter · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I think it’s very possible that Enoch & Elijah may have been translated to Sheol without experiencing death. Some believe that they will return and prophesy in the tribulation times and that they may experience death at that time.

I believe Enoch was the only person who did not see death (Which is a type or figure of the Pre-Trib Rapture). Enoch went directly to paradise within Sheol. But he did not ascend to the Third Heaven or God's Kingdom above. Note on the Rapture: I also believe there will be a Mid Trib gathering up of the saints by angels to Heaven (Which is a type of God's people being protected within the Ark during the Judgment so as to enter a new world).

I believe Elijah died normally, and he went to Paradise or Abraham's bosom in Sheol (upon his death). The reference to his going to Heaven was his travel up through the 1st Heaven (Which is the atmosphere, clouds, and or sky). I believe Elijah was merely being transported to another place on the Earth by way of God's airline. For later in 2 Chronicles 21, the wicked king Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah. So Elijah never left the Earth. Note: If Elijah did go to the Third Heaven, then the words of Jesus are not true in John 3:13. No man leading up from the point in time of when Christ talked to Nicodemus could have ascended (except Jesus). Also, it does not make any sense that Elijah would be riding a chariot up into the sky to go to Sheol, either. Sheol is down below in the heart of the Earth. So Elijah on his chariot ride would have been headed in the wrong direction if the chariot's destination was Sheol (Which is in the heart of the Earth).

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, and they will prophesy during the end times or during the latter half of the 7 year tribulation. Moses and Elijah were the two witnesses present at Christ's 1st coming at the Transfiguration on the Mount. So it makes sense that they would be witnesses again at the closing age of His 2nd coming. In other words, it is logical consistency. As for the two witnesses experiencing death during the Tribulation: Well, according to Revelation, the two witnesses will be killed during that time, and then they will later be resurrected and they will ascend to Heaven (the Third Heaven or God's Kingdom).

Maria Billingsley · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
After further study I think that Hebrews 7 indicates a distinction between Jesus and Melchizedek indicating that they are two separate beings.

“Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I don’t believe Jesus was incarnated before Mary and if Jesus was Melchizedek it wouldn’t be correct to say that a Melchizedek was made like the Son of God if he were the Son of God.

It is widely held that Melchizedek is a Christophany, an appearance or non-physical manifestation of Christ.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
You're reading more into the statement then is there. "No one has ascended" refers to anyone previously, the one to ascend will be Christ, the One who descended in the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

I disagree. You are reading it as two separate sentences. No one has descended. But He who has descended, the Son of Man. The second sentence would be a sentence fragment and not a complete sentence. I believe the way it was intended is “no one has ascended but He who has descended, the Son of Man. That is a complete statement. The latter part in the KJV “which is in heaven” is not in the original Greek text. The NASB has a more accurate translation that is not adding to what is written in the Greek text.

“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The word “even” is also not in the Greek text and if you search Strong’s Concordance there is no Greek word or number reference given for the word even in this verse.

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Here’s the original word for Word Greek text along with the English translation in ().

John 3:13

13 καὶ (And) G2532 Conj οὐδεὶς (no one) G3762 Adj-NMS ἀναβέβηκεν (ascended) G305 V-RIA-3S εἰς (to) G1519 Prep τὸν (which) G3588 Art-AMS οὐρανὸν (heaven) G3772 N-AMS εἰ (if) G1487 Conj μὴ (not) G3361 Adv ὁ (which) G3588 Art-NMS ἐκ (from) G1537 Prep τοῦ (which) G3588 Art-GMS οὐρανοῦ (heaven) G3772 N-GMS καταβάς (descended) G2597 V-APA-NMS ὁ (which) G3588 Art-NMS υἱὸς (Son) G5207 N-NMS τοῦ (which) G3588 Art-GMS ἀνθρώπου (man) G444 N-GMS

Notice The word “heaven” only appears two times in the Greek text. In the KJV the word “heaven” appears three times.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe Enoch was the only person who did not see death (Which is a type or figure of the Pre-Trib Rapture). Enoch went directly to paradise within Sheol. But he did not ascend to the Third Heaven or God's Kingdom above. Note on the Rapture: I also believe there will be a Mid Trib gathering up of the saints by angels to Heaven (Which is a type of God's people being protected within the Ark during the Judgment so as to enter a new world).

I believe Elijah died normally, and he went to Paradise or Abraham's bosom in Sheol (upon his death). The reference to his going to Heaven was his travel up through the 1st Heaven (Which is the atmosphere, clouds, and or sky). I believe Elijah was merely being transported to another place on the Earth by way of God's airline. For later in 2 Chronicles 21, the wicked king Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah. So Elijah never left the Earth. Note: If Elijah did go to the Third Heaven, then the words of Jesus are not true in John 3:13. No man leading up from the point in time of when Christ talked to Nicodemus could have ascended (except Jesus). Also, it does not make any sense that Elijah would be riding a chariot up into the sky to go to Sheol, either. Sheol is down below in the heart of the Earth. So Elijah on his chariot ride would have been headed in the wrong direction if the chariot's destination was Sheol (Which is in the heart of the Earth).

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, and they will prophesy during the end times or during the latter half of the 7 year tribulation. Moses and Elijah were the two witnesses present at Christ's 1st coming at the Transfiguration on the Mount. So it makes sense that they would be witnesses again at the closing age of His 2nd coming. In other words, it is logical consistency. As for the two witnesses experiencing death during the Tribulation: Well, according to Revelation, the two witnesses will be killed during that time, and then they will later be resurrected and they will ascend to Heaven (the Third Heaven or God's Kingdom).

That’s an interesting take on Elijah considering his letter.

ViaCrucis · Nov 15, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
It is widely held that Melchizedek is a Christophany, an appearance or non-physical manifestation of Christ.

Not that widely. This view is known as Melchizedekism, and was regarded in antiquity as heretical. Rather Melchizedek is widely regarded as a type of Christ.

Melchizedek was an ordinary human being. But is very interesting because he is described as both a king and priest of God. So the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes Christ's priesthood as being of "the order of Melchizedek" because of the similarity:

Melichizedek was a high priest of God, but had no relationship to the Aaronic Priesthood, thus didn't have the "pedigree" that all Hebrew kohanim (priests) did as descendants of Aaron. Hence Melchizedek is described as "He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever." The point the anonymous writer is trying to say here is that Melchizedek's life is basically unknown. Melchizedek didn't have the pedigree that priests were expected to have under the Old Covenant, and we have no information about his birth or death--he shows up, gets mentioned, and not much else is ever said about him. And the author here sees in Melchizedek a type of Christ, hence "resembling the Son of God". Hence the comparison between Melchizedek and Christ.

Jesus, like Melchizedek, didn't have the genealogical pedigree to become high priest, but nevertheless is our Great High Priest. And just like no mention is made of Melchizedek's "tenure" (as it were) as a high priest (remember, Jewish high priests only filled the vocation for a time) but ostensibly remained so for the entire duration of their existence--likewise Christ is High Priest forever.

But, and this is important, Melchizedek is never at any point identified as a Christophany, and--as noted earlier--this idea has been repudiated and rejected as heretical since antiquity. Melchizedek is not the pre-incarnate Logos; but only an ordinary man. The king of Salem (later Jerusalem), and high priest of El Elyon, The Most High God.

-CryptoLutheran

Maria Billingsley · Nov 15, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Melichizedek was a high priest of God, but had no relationship to the Aaronic Priesthood, thus didn't have the "pedigree" that all Hebrew kohanim (priests) did as descendants of Aaron.

Exactly, this is why He was a Christophany. We know that Jesus Christ of Nazareth supersedes the Aaronic Priesthood with the everlasting Priesthood. A New Testament reference explains this unique appearance of Christ.

Hebrews 7
7 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

ViaCrucis · Nov 15, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Exactly, this is why He was a Christophany. We know that Jesus Christ of Nazareth supersedes the Aaronic Priesthood with the everlasting Priesthood. A New Testament reference explains this unique appearance of Christ.

Hebrews 7
7 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

But calling Melchizedek a Christophany is to say that he is Christ Himself. And that's imply not the case. Melchizedek resembles Christ in certain key ways, which is why he was a type of Christ. But he was not Christ. And thus not a Christophany.

-CryptoLutheran

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
It is widely held that Melchizedek is a Christophany, an appearance or non-physical manifestation of Christ.

After checking the Greek I found that Hebrews 7:4 does not necessarily refer to Melchizedek as a man but more accurately as “this one or he”. I’ll have to do some more study on the Greek text referring to his likeness to Christ.

Norbert L · Nov 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is both the divine and man .... He can be in heaven or on earth. Man is either IN heaven (changed) or on the earth (not changed) and can't go back and forth between the two.

I'm not sure how well that would hold up when placed alongside the narrative concerning Lazarus.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
All of this takes place after John 3. In John 3 He said

“No one has ascended (past tense) into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Yes, I see this as one possibility or it could be both possibilities I mentioned to you before. In this case, Jesus could be referring to His ascension to Heaven after seeing Samson's parents (Which could be one of many other times He ascended in a non-human form to Heaven) long before the Incarnation.

In Samson's Birth:

Judges 13:3-23

Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

What is interesting is that Judges 13 says this:

"As the flame went up from the altar toward the sky, the LORD's messenger went up in it while Manoah and his wife watched. They fell facedown to the ground." (Judges 13:20) (NET).

"For when the flame went up toward the heavens from the altar, the Angel of the Lord ascended in the altar flame. And Manoah and his wife looked on, and they fell on their faces to the ground." (Judges 13:20). (AMPC).

Note: Jesus is eternal and uncreated (and 2nd person of the Trinity). So then how can Jesus be called an angel in the Old Testament? Well, again, I want to stress that Jesus is not a created "angel;" Second, the word "angel" here is in reference to the word "Messenger." In addition, it is also possible that He used an empty hollow skin like shell of angels (with no soul) (kind of like putting on a cloak or suit) so as to house the glory of the "Living Word" (i.e. Jesus). Jesus did not possess an angel in existence, and neither did he take on the soul of an angel. He merely took on the outer shell or skin of angels so as not kill people when they seen Him.

In other words, in John 3:13, Jesus could have been saying that He is the only flesh and blood man currently alive who ascended to Heaven in a previous form that was not flesh and blood. The only time Jesus became flesh and blood was in the Incarnation via by the virgin Mary.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 15, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
But calling Melchizedek a Christophany is to say that he is Christ Himself. And that's imply not the case. Melchizedek resembles Christ in certain key ways, which is why he was a type of Christ. But he was not Christ. And thus not a Christophany.

-CryptoLutheran

There are two views "type of Christ" or "Christ Himself". I choose Christophany based on compelling scriptural evidence already presented to you.
Be blessed.

eleos1954 · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭18:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭6:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

That is not for certain, these very well could be referring to Jesus. I don’t think that Jesus who played a major role in creation sat on the sidelines for 4000 years doing nothing. I believe even then He was doing His Father’s will.

John 1

16From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

Another very stark example is found in Exodus.

Exodus 3

1Meanwhile, Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro,a the priest of Midian. He led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush

and then ...

5“Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”d 6Then He said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

At this, Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Now ... first and foremost Jesus is NOT a created being.

The word angel means messenger. Sometimes the word angel is used in reference to the actual created angelic beings .... sometimes referenced to a human being and ... yes ... sometimes in relation to the divine. When used in relation to the divine this in NO WAY diminishes or dismisses that Jesus IS God. Jesus was/is the divine messenger ... He is God.

So one can do a search on angels ... angel of the Lord etc. but be very very certain of the context in which the word angel is being used.

If no one has never seen God ( No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son).. and an a "angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses ... then who appeared on Mt. Sanai must be Jesus, who made the covenant with Israel etc. including the 10 commandments.

Everything was created through Jesus for him and by Him.

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

He is our creator as well.

Jesus does the works of the Father since the beginning and throughout history ... they are co-equal in everything and always have been.

John 14:9

New International Version
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus has been doing the Fathers work since the beginning and throughout history.

John 5:17
King James Version
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The works of Christ are the works of the Father, both because they are one God, and also because the Father does not work except in (through) the Son.

eleos1954 · Nov 15, 2019

Norbert L said:
I'm not sure how well that would hold up when placed alongside the narrative concerning Lazarus.

It does, because that is a parable. Some do not believe so ... I agree to disagree.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, I see this as one possibility or it could be both possibilities I mentioned to you before. In this case, Jesus could be referring to His ascension to Heaven after seeing Samson's parents (Which could be one of many other times He ascended in a non-human form to Heaven) long before the Incarnation.

In Samson's Birth:

Judges 13:3-23

Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

What is interesting is that Judges 13 says this:

"As the flame went up from the altar toward the sky, the LORD's messenger went up in it while Manoah and his wife watched. They fell facedown to the ground." (Judges 13:20) (NET).

"For when the flame went up toward the heavens from the altar, the Angel of the Lord ascended in the altar flame. And Manoah and his wife looked on, and they fell on their faces to the ground." (Judges 13:20). (AMPC).

Note: Jesus is eternal and uncreated (and 2nd person of the Trinity). So then how can Jesus be called an angel in the Old Testament? Well, again, I want to stress that Jesus is not a created "angel;" Second, the word "angel" here is in reference to the word "Messenger." In addition, it is also possible that He used an empty hollow skin like shell of angels (with no soul) (kind of like putting on a cloak or suit) so as to house the glory of the "Living Word" (i.e. Jesus). Jesus did not possess an angel in existence, and neither did he take on the soul of an angel. He merely took on the outer shell or skin of angels so as not kill people when they seen Him.

In other words, in John 3:13, Jesus could have been saying that He is the only flesh and blood man currently alive who ascended to Heaven in a previous form that was not flesh and blood. The only time Jesus became flesh and blood was in the Incarnation via by the virgin Mary.

Yes the word angel means messenger and Jesus was no doubt a messenger of The Father during His ministry. Jesus was not intended to be revealed as God in the Old Testament. I believe this was also part of the stumbling block mentioned in Romans 11, that being that Jews were monotheists. So it is conceivable that the Jews would, out of ignorance, view Jesus’ visits in the OT times as an angel of God or even God The Father Himself and record Jesus as such in the OT.

When did Christ descend from heaven then ascend back to heaven before His crucifiction?

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