The postmodern abyss

dms1972

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Hi, I just thought I'd ask for prayer here, because I have this problem philosophically in regard to postmodernism. For years I have struggled with christian belief - I was drawn to existentialist philosophies to some extent and probably had read some of Bultmann at one stage in my life. So that was were I was at I think earlier in life. Its probably a bit hard for people of faith to understand, but I seemed to be in and out of different philosophies, each one colouring my experience of the world - I would feel uncomfortable in cartesian dualism and seek something else - and read Heidegger, then feel there was no way back from that. You have to understand its like I do absorb these ideas into my worldview, which maybe not everyone who studies philosophy does. So its like I live in these philosophies.

Well I must have stayed at least partly with the Bultmannian, existentialist frame for a good few years, till around twenty five years ago when I went further and went beyond existentialism and into postmodernism of some sort and that was like falling into an abyss. I really felt unconnected and no hold on anything, as if I was just tumbling and tumbling. It was a nightmare. Previously some verse of the Bible would give me a something to hold on to, but I found that not even John 1:1 could pull me out. I simply could not explain to people. I deconstructed myself, my "I"

So I really am not sure why I am posting, but I suppose to ask for prayer.

Maybe I am too introspective and trying to figure were I was at and were I am at now and need to be more outward focused.

I can't explain were I am at, but reading the Bible is not the same as it was before I plunged into Postmodernism. The whole issue is I suppose around words and reality, and is there any reality? To cope I tell myself there is, even though at one point I was sure and said there was no reality - I was very confused at that time and thought I wasn't in touch with reality, then from there went to thinking there was no reality, at the same time I was thinking myself to be God. Although I don't remember it clearly someone took me to a crisis psychiatric centre, and I said that to them, the response was that nothing could be done for me. I am not sure if I still have that ideation about being God. It did seem at the time the only way to cope, as I felt I had very little grasp on reality and was about to lose that totally.
 
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ajcarey

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I'm praying for you. I'll add that you wouldn't want anyone deconstructing words in every last phrase you uttered. God give the same basic respect at least and see if you can't understand some Bible phrases and build up an understanding of the Truth of His Word. This can expose the lies you've heard until you are able (somehow, with God all things are possible) to come under the Government of the Word in genuine repentance and find grace in God's eyes.
 
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Anguspure

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Maybe I am too introspective and trying to figure were I was at and were I am at now and need to be more outward focused.
You are correct. Excessive navel gazing is almost always an indicator of mental problems. If you want to know whats real, go and find a way to help some people in need. If you want to experience God then do it in His name and for Him.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Might I suggest you read a bit of Owen Barfield? He writes about how the I arose from older forms of consciousness, and how one can make your way back. I would advise you read a bit of his work. There is a good little collection of Essays of his called The Rediscovery of Meaning, after the title essay. He gives a good context for much of this thinking, which helps to deconstruct the Deconstruction itself.

Note: He is a bit of a fan of Rudolf Steiner, but one shouldn't hold that against him. I really think his writings might be useful to you.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I deconstructed myself, my "I"

That sounds like a scene from a cult science fiction film of my youth.






I can't explain were I am at, but reading the Bible is not the same as it was before I plunged into Postmodernism. The whole issue is I suppose around words and reality, and is there any reality? To cope I tell myself there is, even though at one point I was sure and said there was no reality - I was very confused at that time and thought I wasn't in touch with reality, then from there went to thinking there was no reality, at the same time I was thinking myself to be God. Although I don't remember it clearly someone took me to a crisis psychiatric centre, and I said that to them, the response was that nothing could be done for me. I am not sure if I still have that ideation about being God. It did seem at the time the only way to cope, as I felt I had very little grasp on reality and was about to lose that totally.


I spent 8.5 years on a postmodern evangelical web site. I found myself arguing with a lot of what folks had to say that sort of was, or bordered on Solipsism. I did find some of it useful though and I actually am planning on using it for Christian Blogging and Video Blogging.

Pavel's Postmodern thread
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi, I just thought I'd ask for prayer here, because I have this problem philosophically in regard to postmodernism. For years I have struggled with christian belief - I was drawn to existentialist philosophies to some extent and probably had read some of Bultmann at one stage in my life. So that was were I was at I think earlier in life. Its probably a bit hard for people of faith to understand, but I seemed to be in and out of different philosophies, each one colouring my experience of the world - I would feel uncomfortable in cartesian dualism and seek something else - and read Heidegger, then feel there was no way back from that. You have to understand its like I do take these ideas as reality, which maybe not everyone who studies philosophy does. So its like I live in these philosophies.

Well I must have stayed at least partly with the Bultmannian, existentialist frame for a good few years, till around twenty five years ago when I went further and went beyond existentialism and into postmodernism of some sort and that was like falling into an abyss. I really felt unconnected and no hold on anything, as if I was just tumbling and tumbling. It was a nightmare. Previously some verse of the Bible would give me a something to hold on to, but I found that not even John 1:1 could pull me out. I simply could not explain to people. I deconstructed myself, my "I"

So I really am not sure why I am posting, but I suppose to ask for prayer.

Maybe I am too introspective and trying to figure were I was at and were I am at now and need to be more outward focused.

I can't explain were I am at, but reading the Bible is not the same as it was before I plunged into Postmodernism. The whole issue is I suppose around words and reality, and is there any reality? To cope I tell myself there is, even though at one point I was sure and said there was no reality - I was very confused at that time and thought I wasn't in touch with reality, then from there went to thinking there was no reality, at the same time I was thinking myself to be God. Although I don't remember it clearly someone took me to a crisis psychiatric centre, and I said that to them, the response was that nothing could be done for me. I am not sure if I still have that ideation about being God. It did seem at the time the only way to cope, as I felt I had very little grasp on reality and was about to lose that totally.

dms, I feel for you buddy, I really do. However, as one who is somewhat 'postmodernist-ic' (-ic) in his own existential approach to the Christian Faith, all of my openness to exploring as you have has actually left me stronger than I was earlier in my Christian walk. So, in this case, while I understand fully the conceptual confusion that can come with having a ka-gillion different philosophies dancing in our heads---which I'm sure that both you and I do---in this case, the disassociation you're feeling is partly philosophical, as it could be for anyone, and also a psychological challenge that not everyone has to face in the way that you do and you'll need to make sure you get the medical help and counseling that you need.

And it's ok to feel the way you do. Just try to remember that if God exists, if Jesus is Lord, then His being Lord over all creation and our very souls ISN'T directly dependent on your ability or feeling to recognize this as some 'human fact.'

Peace.
 
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dms1972

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Might I suggest you read a bit of Owen Barfield? He writes about how the I arose from older forms of consciousness, and how one can make your way back. I would advise you read a bit of his work. There is a good little collection of Essays of his called The Rediscovery of Meaning, after the title essay. He gives a good context for much of this thinking, which helps to deconstruct the Deconstruction itself.

Note: He is a bit of a fan of Rudolf Steiner, but one shouldn't hold that against him. I really think his writings might be useful to you.

OK thanks for mentioning that, not sure if I have ever read anything of his, but I know of him from his connection to CS Lewis.
 
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dms1972

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I'd also say as regards Dark Star, which is a spoof of 2001, it was directed by John Carpenter who from seeing some of his other films has a penchant for quite contrived plots and situations for his characters - I suppose that could be said for a good few films.

I read that Doolittle here mistakenly teaches the bomb - Cartesian Doubt rather than Phenomenology?
 
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dms1972

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Probably not the thread for it but I wouldn't mind hearing a few takes on John Carpenter and some of his films, is he putting anything across in his movies? If so what?

Are there any books about film study that are worth reading? I have read at least one from a christian viewpoint - Hollywood Worldviews - which has been somewhat helpful - but I'd like to understand cinema better in its own terms as it were also.
 
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I'm thinking of reading Fichte. I might have read some of his writting before, can't remember for sure. Was looking at his book The Vocation of Man.

Anyone any thoughts about going in that direction?

I've never read Fichte as yet, but I have heard of him. He was influenced by Immanuel Kant so I would think there would be something interesting or maybe even valuable that can be learned from him.
 
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dms1972

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I've never read Fichte as yet, but I have heard of him. He was influenced by Immanuel Kant so I would think there would be something interesting or maybe even valuable that can be learned from him.

Since posting I've been reading about him on Wikipedia. Hes suppose to be notoriously difficult to read. He differs from Kant in that he denied the existence of the noumenal realm. The book I have ordered is the one above. Im not sure I'll get very far with it, I thought since he has it divided into three chapters:

1. Doubt,
2. Knowledge
3. Faith

that he was going to talking about Faith in some sort of christian sense, but I read somewhere that what he expounds is egalitarian socialism.
 
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klutedavid

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Hi, I just thought I'd ask for prayer here, because I have this problem philosophically in regard to postmodernism. For years I have struggled with christian belief - I was drawn to existentialist philosophies to some extent and probably had read some of Bultmann at one stage in my life. So that was were I was at I think earlier in life. Its probably a bit hard for people of faith to understand, but I seemed to be in and out of different philosophies, each one colouring my experience of the world - I would feel uncomfortable in cartesian dualism and seek something else - and read Heidegger, then feel there was no way back from that. You have to understand its like I do absorb these ideas into my worldview, which maybe not everyone who studies philosophy does. So its like I live in these philosophies.

Well I must have stayed at least partly with the Bultmannian, existentialist frame for a good few years, till around twenty five years ago when I went further and went beyond existentialism and into postmodernism of some sort and that was like falling into an abyss. I really felt unconnected and no hold on anything, as if I was just tumbling and tumbling. It was a nightmare. Previously some verse of the Bible would give me a something to hold on to, but I found that not even John 1:1 could pull me out. I simply could not explain to people. I deconstructed myself, my "I"

So I really am not sure why I am posting, but I suppose to ask for prayer.

Maybe I am too introspective and trying to figure were I was at and were I am at now and need to be more outward focused.

I can't explain were I am at, but reading the Bible is not the same as it was before I plunged into Postmodernism. The whole issue is I suppose around words and reality, and is there any reality? To cope I tell myself there is, even though at one point I was sure and said there was no reality - I was very confused at that time and thought I wasn't in touch with reality, then from there went to thinking there was no reality, at the same time I was thinking myself to be God. Although I don't remember it clearly someone took me to a crisis psychiatric centre, and I said that to them, the response was that nothing could be done for me. I am not sure if I still have that ideation about being God. It did seem at the time the only way to cope, as I felt I had very little grasp on reality and was about to lose that totally.
If there is a God, then philosophy is irrelevant.

If heaven exists and you can go there, then philosophy, science, the world, are irrelevant.

What it is that you really believe will, in the end, determine everything that you think and do.

Simply put, do you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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dms1972

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I've never read Fichte as yet, but I have heard of him. He was influenced by Immanuel Kant so I would think there would be something interesting or maybe even valuable that can be learned from him.

Well I have given him his book a glance, but I don't think its going to be much help for me now- I think I may have passed through his philosophy some years ago. I used to be able to track were I was at philsophically to some extent - but now I can't - such is the problem with postmodernism and deconstructionism
 
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Well I have given him his book a glance, but I don't think its going to be much help for me now- I think I may have passed through his philosophy some years ago. I used to be able to track were I was at philsophically to some extent - but now I can't - such is the problem with postmodernism and deconstructionism

Well.....................................there's still Philosophical Hermeneutics by which to pass beyond and help balance one's thoughts out when standing between the Modern and the Post-Modern. ;)
 
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dms1972

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Well.....................................there's still Philosophical Hermeneutics by which to pass beyond and help balance one's thoughts out when standing between the Modern and the Post-Modern. ;)

What is that exactly, if you don't mind explaining, and who writes on it? I don't know if I am "standing between the modern and postmodern", my experience seemed more like falling through the "interstices".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What is that exactly, if you don't mind explaining, and who writes on it? I don't know if I am "standing between the modern and postmodern", my experience seemed more like falling through the "interstices".

The field itself owes its present state and discourse to a relatively small number of theorists, most of whom can be traced back to the influences of Hans-Georg Gadamer. But, one of the introductory texts to this field is presented by Jens Zimmerman in his small Oxford book, Hermeneutics, and in that small book he explains that hermeneutics is a mode of exploration through our life and culture, one that adds to our ability to interpret and bring together the various aspects of human thought in our world. It's a mode of travel rather than an epistemic destination. This book is short, inexpensive and is a good starting point.

If you haven't seen the following short video in which Zimmerman explains the basic points of his book, then here it is for your convenience:

 
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dms1972

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Thanks. That Oxford Very Short Introductions series is pretty good - I have a couple of their other titles.

I seem to be overthinking an awful lot, I used to be able to 'get' stuff very easily - music videos and what not, I don't know maybe I am trying to protect myself from the messages in things. Its at a deeper level that we comprehend meanings.
 
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Thanks. That Oxford Very Short Introductions series is pretty good - I have a couple of their other titles.

I seem to be overthinking an awful lot, I used to be able to 'get' stuff very easily - music videos and what not, I don't know maybe I am trying to protect myself from the messages in things. Its at a deeper level that we comprehend meanings.

No problem. I think if we're all honest, we're all going to say that attempting to understanding and apply the Bible to our respective spiritual experiences and perceptions of the world around us is difficult. Because it is difficult, this is why we need to have a more thoughtful approach to handling the wide array of individual analyses and human constructions that often attempt to serve as 'knowledge bases' among us.

I think that the field of Philosophical Hermeneutics is a substantive, even if additive, component to our thought processes that can be helpful to us in our existential struggles to reach out and not only understand books like the Bible better but to also to better understand our own situations in life, even as challenging as they often are or can be.
 
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