Faith and obedience.
Spiritual DNA.
Exclusively.
In all eras.
So when Israel wasn't obedient at times, they were no longer Israel? Or, they were never Israel to begin with?
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
How can this not be based on DNA? Not meaning spiritual DNA though. For example. Would Jesus have said the same thing to a Gentile at the time----I know that ye are Abraham's seed?
"Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God". It wasn't a location on the map. Our Father is Abraham....our "Mother" is the New Jerusalem/New Covenant. Prior to the New Covenant - faith was always what caused a person to be considered righteous and a citizen of the People of God ("not all Israel is Israel").So when Israel wasn't obedient at times, they were no longer Israel? Or, they were never Israel to begin with?
Claninja said:Salmon (tribe of Judah) and Rahab(Canaanite) had Boaz
Boaz (mixed half tribe of Judah, half Canaanite) and Ruth (Moabite) had Obed
Obed (half Moabite, quarter Canaanite, and quarter Jewish ) fathered Jesse
and Jesse fathered david.
Right here, we can see that while Obed could trace his lineage through Judah, he was barely of the DNA of Israel.
Claninja said:Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.
Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).
Was Jesus complimenting them, or castigating them, regarding their physical DNA?
He leaves no doubt.
John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
There were a lot of false beliefs and false assumptions that Jesus had to cut through (not too much unlike beliefs that Christians hold today). Notice who Jesus was speaking to in this passage. ISTM that they were struggling to fully grasp the Truth (which, I think is just being human, even Peter struggled) I think this exchange is probably a lot like when Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter struggled with Jesus' words about going to the Cross and dying:That misses the point though. Why did Jesus agree with them that they were Abraham's seed? And once again, since you didn't answer the question, would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?
If you are looking for human reasons, the Russians were the most effective opposition to Hitler's regime. Stalin was no better than Hitler, but he knew how to win a war.It was the Anzacs bro.
This was by "obedience" and "faith" that people were included in the Israelites. They were set apart as being the People of God - and many were brought into the group that were considered "foreigners" (as I quoted from Isaiah 56) but also Genesis 17 reveals this as well (and post #26 includes more about that, too).would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?
How many Christians have replaced the cross, with a star?
Do they claim there are people now living on earth who have a special covenant relationship with God, based on who their parents would be, instead of a relationship with God's Son?
If you ask these difficult questions, will you be labeled as a "hater"?
Hi jgr,
The ones with a Jewish mother, it seems in Acts 16
Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek. [...] 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
9God also said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep My covenant, you and your descendants for the generations to come. 10This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised. 11You are to circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and this will be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”
Good day Gal,"Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God".[...] Prior to the New Covenant - faith was always what caused a person to be considered righteous and a citizen of the People of God ("not all Israel is Israel").
Well, you started talking about Israel. If you aren't Jewish you shouldn't pretend being part of Israel - I mean the group of people, not the country."Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God". It wasn't a location on the map. Our Father is Abraham....our "Mother" is the New Jerusalem/New Covenant.
There were a lot of false beliefs and false assumptions that Jesus had to cut through (not too much unlike beliefs that Christians hold today). Notice who Jesus was speaking to in this passage. ISTM that they were struggling to fully grasp the Truth (which, I think is just being human, even Peter struggled) I think this exchange is probably a lot like when Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter struggled with Jesus' words about going to the Cross and dying:
John 8:31-43 ~
So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” “We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” “Abraham is our father,” they replied.
“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.
I was responding - with that post - to what David had posted re-quoted below:"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Galatians 5:1-6
DavidPT said:would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?
Did you see the Isaiah passage I quoted? It was *never* about race. There were people included in the Israelites that were not natural offspring - they weren't to be excluded from the grace of God (the males were to be circumcised as part of the covenant - as an outward expression of their faithfulness and obedience). After the Cross - Christ Jesus tore down the "wall of hostility" that had formed between Jews and Gentiles.Yet, what is in question, how does God decide who is Israel. How can it not be based on race? For example, how would God decide who is Chinese and who are not? So on and so on. And the same way He decides that should be the same way He decides who is Israel and who is not.
Well, you started talking about Israel. If you aren't Jewish you shouldn't pretend being part of Israel - I mean the group of people, not the country.
Just in case you were wanting to imply this. ... This would be replacement theology at its best (worst).
Regards,
Thomas
Galatians 3:29 ~ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
It's not about *replacement* because the faithful Jewish remnant is included (that's the root of of entire tradition of faith). No one with faith (as JGR puts it, "spiritual DNA") is excluded or replaced. So what I'm describing isn't *replacement* - it's *expansion* theory.
Genesis 17:2-4 ~ I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,“As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations."
Isaiah 56:7 ~ I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”