two covenants

Mercy74 said:

The children of Sarah shall outnumber Hagar; Sarah was barren. The children of the promise shall outnumber those born after the flesh. Both Isaac and Ishmael are physical heirs

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[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Gup20 said:

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

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Please pay very close attention to verse 11; (the part you failed to bold or underline) he received the sign of circumcision A SEAL of the righteousness of faith while he had while he was uncircumcised. In other words Abraham walked by faith became righteous then he circumcised himself in the flesh. If you have faith in Yeshua you too have become righteous; now you should do the work of Abraham (John 8:39). What did Abraham do? Abraham circumcised himself and every male in his house in his old age. This is what Paul the Pharisee is saying.

Mercy74 said:

Please pay very close attention to verse 11; (the part you failed to bold or underline) he received the sign of circumcision A SEAL of the righteousness of faith while he had while he was uncircumcised. In other words Abraham walked by faith became righteous then he circumcised himself in the flesh. If you have faith in Yeshua you too have become righteous; now you should do the work of Abraham (John 8:39). What did Abraham do? Abraham circumcised himself and every male in his house in his old age. This is what Paul the Pharisee is saying.

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Did you notice what Genesis shows us about righteousness and circumcision?


Here we see God make Abraham righteous for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16). But notice he makes the covenant with him and ratifies this covenant by passing as a flame between the pieces. Abraham has not yet been circumcised, yet he has already been made righteous, and he already has an unbreakable, ratified covenant with God where God passed between the halves for both of them.

Indeed that is the point of Romans 4:9-11 - that Abraham was made righteous for his faith BEFORE he was circumcised... so as a Gentile.

It is not until Genesis 17 where God tells Abraham that he must be circumcised. However, as we see from the Law and the Prophets, God always intended circumcision to be of the heart.

Later in Ephesians, God says:


So just like the passage in Romans 2, it refers to circumcision as a foreshadow of the indwellling of the Holy Spirit. However, that circumcision of the heart comes AFTER one has been made righteous for their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gup20 said:

Deu 10:16 NASB
“So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

Deu 30:6
“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Jer 4:4 NASB
“Circumcise yourselves to the LORD
And remove the foreskins of your heart,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
And burn with none to quench it,
Because of the evil of your deeds.”

Rom 2:28-29 NASB
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

Did you notice what Genesis shows us about righteousness and circumcision?

Gen 15:5-6, 8-9, 17 NASB
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. ... 8 He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?" 9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." ... 17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, [there appeared] a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.​

Here we see God make Abraham righteous for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16). But notice he makes the covenant with him and ratifies this covenant by passing as a flame between the pieces. Abraham has not yet been circumcised, yet he has already been made righteous, and he already has an unbreakable, ratified covenant with God where God passed between the halves for both of them.

Indeed that is the point of Romans 4:9-11 - that Abraham was made righteous for his faith BEFORE he was circumcised... so as a Gentile.

It is not until Genesis 17 where God tells Abraham that he must be circumcised. However, as we see from the Law and the Prophets, God always intended circumcision to be of the heart.

Later in Ephesians, God says:

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 4:11 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​

So just like the passage in Romans 2, it refers to circumcision as a foreshadow of the indwellling of the Holy Spirit. However, that circumcision of the heart comes AFTER one has been made righteous for their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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If you read my post; Paul the Pharisee has already plainly established; I have also acknowledged that Abraham was made righteous by his faith but he also received the SIGN OF CIRCUMCISION the seal of the righteousness he had while uncircumcised. You must not deny the WORKS of Abraham. Faith is DEAD without works; Abraham circumcised himself as well as every male in his household. It is impossible to FULLY understand circumcision of the heart if you refuse to obey the holy command; circumcise your flesh on the 8th day. Circumcision was the SIGN of the covenant. Do not forget that Paul the Pharisee was circumcised on the 8th day; Abraham is also circumcised; everyone born in his house and any male slave purchased with his money! If you are truly born again into Abraham's family, every male must be circumcised.

Mercy74 said:

If you read my post; Paul the Pharisee has already plainly established; I have also acknowledged that Abraham was made righteous by his faith but he also received the SIGN OF CIRCUMCISION the seal of the righteousness he had while uncircumcised. You must not deny the WORKS of Abraham. Faith is DEAD without works; Abraham circumcised himself as well as every male in his household. It is impossible to FULLY understand circumcision of the heart if you refuse to obey the holy command; circumcise your flesh on the 8th day. Circumcision was the SIGN of the covenant. Do not forget that Paul the Pharisee was circumcised on the 8th day; Abraham is also circumcised; everyone born in his house and any male slave purchased with his money! If you are truly born again into Abraham's family, every male must be circumcised.

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How do you know that faith is dead without works?


James 2 is how we know this. However, the example James gives is Abraham offering up Isaac on the altar. This is decades AFTER God made Abraham righteous for his faith in Genesis 15 (the passage quoted at the end of the passage above). Paul tells us that
Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel BEFORE being circumcised... which is before Isaac was born, so offering up Isaac isn't what made Abraham righteous.

Therefore, we must look to James 2:18 to best understand this passage. It says "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." In other words, genuine faith is demonstrated by works. It is not that works are required for salvation or righteousness. They are not. That isn't what this passage is saying. It is saying that works demonstrate that one has true, genuine faith. Faith alone makes one righteous. And someone who has faith should have works that correspond to that faith, if the faith is real. James is talking about how to tell if faith is real.... not how to become righteous.

Think of it this way... if a car is speeding towards me and I tell everyone that I do not believe the car will hit me, but then as it nears I dive out of the way of the vehicle, my "works" or actions prove that I actually did think the car was going to hit me. Similarly, faith if not accompanied by corresponding action isn't real faith. Real faith will have actions that correspond to what is believed. It is not that the actions save or make anyone righteous. They do not. They cannot. It is only faith. But our actions can demonstrate to ourselves and others what our true faith is.

Gup20 said:

How do you know that faith is dead without works?

[Jas 2:17-24 NASB] 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself. 18 But someone may [well] say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

James 2 is how we know this. However, the example James gives is Abraham offering up Isaac on the altar. This is decades AFTER God made Abraham righteous for his faith in Genesis 15 (the passage quoted at the end of the passage above). Paul tells us that
Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel BEFORE being circumcised... which is before Isaac was born, so offering up Isaac isn't what made Abraham righteous.

Therefore, we must look to James 2:18 to best understand this passage. It says "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." In other words, genuine faith is demonstrated by works. It is not that works are required for salvation or righteousness. They are not. That isn't what this passage is saying. It is saying that works demonstrate that one has true, genuine faith. Faith alone makes one righteous. And someone who has faith should have works that correspond to that faith, if the faith is real. James is talking about how to tell if faith is real.... not how to become righteous.

Think of it this way... if a car is speeding towards me and I tell everyone that I do not believe the car will hit me, but then as it nears I dive out of the way of the vehicle, my "works" or actions prove that I actually did think the car was going to hit me. Similarly, faith if not accompanied by corresponding action isn't real faith. Real faith will have actions that correspond to what is believed. It is not that the actions save or make anyone righteous. They do not. They cannot. It is only faith. But our actions can demonstrate to ourselves and others what our true faith is.

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Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21) You are debating an argument I never stated. I have already stated several times that Abraham was made righteous by his faith alone. Alone means "all + one" , alone is not a single word but a compound word. If you understand the word alone, you would comprehend that alone is not "single" but married. A compound word is two words put together to form a new word. Abraham was made righteous by his faith alone but faith without works is dead. After Abraham performed an act of worship he was called a friend of G-d. Abraham circumcised himself long before he worshipped at the altar. Abraham was called a friend of G-d AFTER HE WAS CIRCUMCISED and worshipped at the altar. James like Abraham promised to show his faith by his works!

ralliann said:

I agree. The two inheritances are two covenants. One for a shadow earthly worldly with his dwelling among them, and the other heavenly eternal with his dwelling among them.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

One being heirs as princes and the other Heirs as kings. Levi and David....

Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

The allegory of the women Paul spoke of is found here.
Sarah......Kings

Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
​

Hagar...Princes
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

I believe this is why Israel was called God's firstborn a double portion (promise) of inheritance. One earthly, the other heavenly...
the faithful Israelites were kept in the promises of both covenants. Not all Israel is Israel...

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Both covenants pertain to earthly kingdoms.

ralliann said:

No I don't think so, but perhaps eternal vs temporal would be a better dichotomy for us to discuss this?
This world vs the next world
This life vs the next life?

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Both Ishmael and Isaac were earthly kingdoms

ralliann said:

Where do we find this?

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Do you read the Bible?

Mercy74 said:

Both Ishmael and Isaac were earthly kingdoms

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Yes.....they were, but Isaac's line bore the "seed" that was promised (Christ Jesus) thus becoming a Kingdom with authority on earth and in heaven (an eternal kingdom that cannot be shaken):

mkgal1 said:

Yes.....they were, but Isaac's line bore the "seed" that was promised (Christ Jesus) thus becoming a Kingdom with authority on earth and in heaven (an eternal kingdom that cannot be shaken):

Galatians 3:16 ~ The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

Genesis 21:12 ~ But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.​

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The promises were made between Abraham and his seed.

Mercy74 said:

The promises were made between Abraham and his seed.

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[Mat 8:10-12 NASB] 10 Now when Jesus heard [this,] He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline [at the table] with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[Gal 4:22-26 KJV] 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[Rom 2:28-29 KJV] 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

[Gal 4:30-31 KJV] 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

[Gen 21:10 KJV] 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.

[Rom 4:12-13 KJV] 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gal 3:16-18 KJV] 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Mercy74 said:

The promises were made between Abraham and his seed.

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Correct - singular SEED (which is Christ). That's what I posted (are you just reiterating that?).

Gup20 said:

[Mat 8:10-12 NASB] 10 Now when Jesus heard [this,] He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline [at the table] with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[Gal 4:22-26 KJV] 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[Rom 2:28-29 KJV] 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

[Gal 4:30-31 KJV] 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

[Gen 21:10 KJV] 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.

[Rom 4:12-13 KJV] 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gal 3:16-18 KJV] 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

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Do you understand that the Jews were scattered abroad? This is why they must be gathered back together to sit at the table of Abraham to eat the great feast. Those who oppress Israel must be thrown outsiide.

Mercy74 said:

Do you understand that the Jews were scattered abroad? This is why they must be gathered back together to sit at the table of Abraham to eat the great feast. Those who oppress Israel must be thrown outsiide.

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Yes. And do you understand that he is not a Jew who is one physically, but he is a Jew who is of the same faith as Abraham; faith in Christ?

Gup20 said:

Yes. And do you understand that he is not a Jew who is one physically, but he is a Jew who is of the same faith as Abraham; faith in Christ?

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Circumcision is not only outward and physical, but it is performed because of the pure heart of the parents.

mkgal1 said:

Correct - singular SEED (which is Christ). That's what I posted (are you just reiterating that?).

Galatians 3:16 ~ The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.​

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"Seed" can be plural when referring to progeny; the seed of Abraham is all his progeny; and Christ would be a seed among many. Paul does specify Christ, but I don't know what Paul is talking about; I imagine the people Paul was speaking to would have understood or could have understood. Paul is making arguments in a debate which require the subject of the debate (which appears to not be revealed) as a context for his statements to be meaningful.

Taking verse 3:16 out of context, it appears to be a statement that I would disagree with. Lets have a look at some of the other verses out of the context of the debate Paul is engaged in:

Galatians 3:15 (NKJV)
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.


This is interesting; Paul defines a covenant as once confirmed a covenant cannot be annulled or added to. He also states he speaks in the manner of men, not as a spokesperson for God. So too does he state that the covenant he is discussing is a man's covenant not a God's covenant.

The conclusion that I reach from this verse, without acknowledging Paul as an authority but being in agreement with him, The new covenant does not annul or add to the old; The covenant is the same in both cases; the difference is in the new and the old; the old is Moses as mediator and the Levites as Priests; the new is Jesus as mediator, and King of the coming Kingdom and then a new Priesthood.


Galatians 3:13-14 (NKJV)
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

What Christ is able to do is redeem us from the bondage of sin; I do not understand Paul's semantics of "curse of the Law" I do understand Christ was cursed when crusified, and when people fail to repent are cursed by the Law.

The covenants are made with Israel, Gentiles have to be folded in, so as to become Israel also.