Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Christian Gedge said:

It was the Anzacs bro.

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And the Canucks.

jgr said:

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

Exclusively.

In all eras.

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So when Israel wasn't obedient at times, they were no longer Israel? Or, they were never Israel to begin with?

jgr said:

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

Exclusively.

In all eras.

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John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

How can this not be based on DNA? Not meaning spiritual DNA though. For example. Would Jesus have said the same thing to a Gentile at the time----I know that ye are Abraham's seed?

DavidPT said:

So when Israel wasn't obedient at times, they were no longer Israel? Or, they were never Israel to begin with?

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When God slew them for disobedience, did their physical DNA matter?

DavidPT said:

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

How can this not be based on DNA? Not meaning spiritual DNA though. For example. Would Jesus have said the same thing to a Gentile at the time----I know that ye are Abraham's seed?

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Was Jesus complimenting them, or castigating them, regarding their physical DNA?

He leaves no doubt.

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

DavidPT said:

So when Israel wasn't obedient at times, they were no longer Israel? Or, they were never Israel to begin with?

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"Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God". It wasn't a location on the map. Our Father is Abraham....our "Mother" is the New Jerusalem/New Covenant. Prior to the New Covenant - faith was always what caused a person to be considered righteous and a citizen of the People of God ("not all Israel is Israel").

jgr said:

Was Jesus complimenting them, or castigating them, regarding their physical DNA?

He leaves no doubt.

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

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That misses the point though. Why did Jesus agree with them that they were Abraham's seed? And once again, since you didn't answer the question, would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?

Keep in mind what Isaiah 56 says:

Isaiah 56 ~

Salvation for Foreigners

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”

DavidPT said:

That misses the point though. Why did Jesus agree with them that they were Abraham's seed? And once again, since you didn't answer the question, would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?

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There were a lot of false beliefs and false assumptions that Jesus had to cut through (not too much unlike beliefs that Christians hold today). Notice who Jesus was speaking to in this passage. ISTM that they were struggling to fully grasp the Truth (which, I think is just being human, even Peter struggled) I think this exchange is probably a lot like when Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter struggled with Jesus' words about going to the Cross and dying:

Christian Gedge said:

It was the Anzacs bro.

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If you are looking for human reasons, the Russians were the most effective opposition to Hitler's regime. Stalin was no better than Hitler, but he knew how to win a war.

DavidPT said:

would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?

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This was by "obedience" and "faith" that people were included in the Israelites. They were set apart as being the People of God - and many were brought into the group that were considered "foreigners" (as I quoted from Isaiah 56) but also Genesis 17 reveals this as well (and post #26 includes more about that, too).

We are also included - by faith - into the same line of Abraham (by adoption). I doubt you disagree with that, right?:


Abraham to Father Many Nations

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty.a Walk before Me and be blameless. 2I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly.”3Then Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4“As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5No longer will you be called Abram,b but your name will be Abraham,c for I have made you a father of many nations.d6I will make you exceedingly fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will descend from you.7I will establish My covenant as an everlasting covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.8And to you and your descendants I will give the land where you are residing—all the land of Canaan—as an eternal possession; and I will be their God.”Leviticus 12:1-8; Joshua 5:1-9; Acts 15:1-4)

9God also said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep My covenant, you and your descendants for the generations to come. 10This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised. 11You are to circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and this will be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

BABerean2 said:

How many Christians have replaced the cross, with a star?

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As many as celebrate Christmas for a month and nearly ignore Easter.

Do they claim there are people now living on earth who have a special covenant relationship with God, based on who their parents would be, instead of a relationship with God's Son?

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You mean the folks who are proud of being "a born Baptist", or "a born Nondenominational", or "born into" any particular sect--or even a "born Christian", who pride themselves on being "born into" Christianity?

If you ask these difficult questions, will you be labeled as a "hater"?

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No, I just was not invited to play at their reindeer games, and my then mother-in-law said she was sorry for me. And my then-wife resented me for "rocking the boat".

thomas_t said:

Hi jgr,
The ones with a Jewish mother, it seems in Acts 16
Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek. [...] 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

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Paul made no statement at all about who was or was not "of Israel". This was a public relations move because Timothy was going to preach primarily to Jews, who were stiff-necked, ethnocentric, and quite bigoted. They were so bigoted that they wouldn't listen to a man who wasn't circumcised. Thus Timothy was circumcised. The bigotry of the Jews of that day was a purely human convention, not Divine.

mkgal1 said:

9God also said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep My covenant, you and your descendants for the generations to come. 10This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised. 11You are to circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and this will be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

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"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Galatians 5:1-6

mkgal1 said:

"Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God".[...] Prior to the New Covenant - faith was always what caused a person to be considered righteous and a citizen of the People of God ("not all Israel is Israel").

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Good day Gal,
That's not true, I think.
In the Old Testament, we have people of God who did NOT belong to Israel though. Folks like Nebuchadnezzar, for instance. That one had great faith (Daniel 4:34):
At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;

mkgal1 said:

"Israel" always meant "PEOPLE of God". It wasn't a location on the map. Our Father is Abraham....our "Mother" is the New Jerusalem/New Covenant.

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Well, you started talking about Israel. If you aren't Jewish you shouldn't pretend being part of Israel - I mean the group of people, not the country.
Just in case you were wanting to imply this. ... This would be replacement theology at its best (worst).

Regards,
Thomas

mkgal1 said:

There were a lot of false beliefs and false assumptions that Jesus had to cut through (not too much unlike beliefs that Christians hold today). Notice who Jesus was speaking to in this passage. ISTM that they were struggling to fully grasp the Truth (which, I think is just being human, even Peter struggled) I think this exchange is probably a lot like when Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan" when Peter struggled with Jesus' words about going to the Cross and dying:

John 8:31-43 ~
So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” “We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” “Abraham is our father,” they replied.​

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.
​

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I get all of this, thus I don't disagree. Yet, what is in question, how does God decide who is Israel. How can it not be based on race? For example, how would God decide who is Chinese and who are not? So on and so on. And the same way He decides that should be the same way He decides who is Israel and who is not.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Galatians 5:1-6

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I was responding - with that post - to what David had posted re-quoted below:

DavidPT said:

Yet, what is in question, how does God decide who is Israel. How can it not be based on race? For example, how would God decide who is Chinese and who are not? So on and so on. And the same way He decides that should be the same way He decides who is Israel and who is not.

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Did you see the Isaiah passage I quoted? It was *never* about race. There were people included in the Israelites that were not natural offspring - they weren't to be excluded from the grace of God (the males were to be circumcised as part of the covenant - as an outward expression of their faithfulness and obedience). After the Cross - Christ Jesus tore down the "wall of hostility" that had formed between Jews and Gentiles.

thomas_t said:

Well, you started talking about Israel. If you aren't Jewish you shouldn't pretend being part of Israel - I mean the group of people, not the country.
Just in case you were wanting to imply this. ... This would be replacement theology at its best (worst).

Regards,
Thomas

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It's not about *replacement* because the faithful Jewish remnant is included (that's the root of our entire tradition of faith). No one with faith (as JGR puts it, "spiritual DNA") is excluded or replaced. So what I'm describing isn't *replacement* - it's *expansion* theory.

mkgal1 said:

Galatians 3:29 ~ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

It's not about *replacement* because the faithful Jewish remnant is included (that's the root of of entire tradition of faith). No one with faith (as JGR puts it, "spiritual DNA") is excluded or replaced. So what I'm describing isn't *replacement* - it's *expansion* theory.

Genesis 17:2-4 ~ I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,“As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations."

Isaiah 56:7 ~ I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”​

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I don't see it as replacement either. No one is being replaced that I can see.