The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

martymonster · Nov 13, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I wasn't talking about you, MartyMonster.
It's just one of those "fingernails on the chalkboard" things to me, like people saying Revelations instead of Revelation referring to the book of Revelation.

OK, cool.

martymonster · Nov 13, 2019

His student said:
Would the free willies and the anti free willies please give us a brief statement on what they mean by the term free will?

Thanks.

For what it's worth - when I use the term free will I mean it in the general sense - the way most people in this world mean it.

I.e. - people can do as they wish within their own nature to do those things. No one is coercing or forcing them to make any certain decision. It is their decision to make and do as they are able to decide and carry through with that decision.

Pertaining to our discussion here is the idea that God does not negate or do violence to our God given freedoms and therefore we are responsible for our choices.

That is what I mean by free will and in that sense I believe in and teach free will.

Not having free will, to me means, God controls absolutely everything down to the smallest detail, and it is all predetermined.

The Righterzpen · Nov 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing.

This is true because Scripture actually calls faith "a work".

Faith is a work:

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

II Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Note what God is “fulfilling”! The “good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power”!

This is why Scripture also states “Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6)

This is the hope of the saints; that God will faithfully complete what He has started in our lives; because we know on account of our weakness in the flesh that we can’t. That is trust in God who’s enacted (and sustains) redemptive faith.

Dave L said:
Free will trust in your willingness to believe thinking it triggers God to save you.

Good description.

klutedavid said:
Are you saying that you receive the Holy Spirit before you hear the gospel?

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." The Word of God is Christ. He enacts one's hearing though the witness they've been given. Some people have the witness of written Scripture. Others only have the witness of Creation. Everyone has the witness of the conscience.

This may be a shocker to a lot of people; but one doesn't actually need to hear Scripture to be saved; because the creation is a testimony in and of itself and one can recognize "His eternal Godhead and power" in that testimony once they are "woked". "Being woked" is an act of the Holy Ghost.

Dave L said:
Often at the same time. But believing Jews since Abel were all born again apart from the Christian gospel.

Believing gentiles (before there even was a "Jew") from every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation. There will be people of tribes of the earth in the recreated universe, that we don't even know exist in this life!

His student said:
Would the free willies and the anti free willies please give us a brief statement on what they mean by the term free will?

Non - "free willie" here: Free Willie was a large sea going black and white mammal who was set free back into the ocean! ^_^

Seriously though:

Will - the intent that an entity acts upon.

Independent will - All entities have the ability to make choices independent of the wishes of other entities (God included).

Free will - The motivation of the will that is not corrupted by either fallen nature, as well as sin.

The only entity who truly had a "free will" was Christ. Adam only maintained innocence of the knowledge of good and evil so long as he obeyed. Yet because Adam had not the omniscience of God; (he was never created with the intent of possessing that) his fall was inevitable. Adam's will was only "probationally free".

Once transgression is/(was) committed; the will is no longer free. Is is subject to the consequence of the corruption of the fall; as well as the individuals' personal sin.

Human beings though; because of being created in the image of God; still maintain a choice as to whether or not their corrupted motivation becomes manifest as "sin" in the material world. "The wages of sin is death" according to the law. The penalty earned is the "wage" determined by the sin committed. Manifest sin is what humanity is judged by. Now all sin of the heart eventually becomes manifest; by thought and action.

Which means that one isn't really judged for "unbelief" because unbelief is simply only a manifestation of being dead (in trespass and sin).

Now any creature with a large enough cerebral cortex to conceive of a choice has the ability to make "independent choices". "Independent choices" though are not necessary "free choices".

Now God being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and without beginning or end; is capable of "real time" interaction with any entity's independent choices. How He does that, is probably something we will never figure out; yet this is how God maintains sovereign control over the universe; and also by definition what makes God - God!

Now salvation operates as the Holy Ghost brings those dead in trespass and sin back to life. This makes their "independent will" judicially and positionally "free"; yet because they still have a corrupted "old man"; they are still affected by sin, both in realms of its consequence, as well as their own potential to commit it.

Neogaia777 · Nov 14, 2019

martymonster said:
Not having free will, to me means, God controls absolutely everything down to the smallest detail, and it is all predetermined.

"Controls" is not the right word, "determined", or already pre-determined long, long ago, before anything was ever made or given "life" is...

He does not have any need to step in and control or guide or interfere so as to direct anything IOW's, for He already has and/or did, long, long ago...

Gave it life, set it all on it's course, and knows/knew everything about it, for it would be impossible for Him not too, being who He is and all...

From before setting it all in motion or giving it all life, His work was done and finished before ever making it, from before the foundations or founding of the world and all of creation...

Note, this is the Father God I speak of, not the other two, for there are two others that are also God... They show us Him, for that is one of that Ones limitations without them, etc...

God Bless!

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

truefiction1 said:
Some say that Scripture says this. Grace reveals Scripture to be saying otherwise. The rational deductions of any man are not the standard by which the Word of God is to be understood. Grace alone is the standard by which the Word of God is known.

Free will shares God's glory. No way around it.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

fhansen said:
There wouldn't really be much point in exhorting anyone to believe, or remain faithful, if it's all done for them. In fact, why not just get it over with and stock heaven with the elect from the beginning if the will is not involved. God could've at least saved humanity from a tremendous amount of pain and suffering and evil that way.

God shapes us through his admonitions. We learn through what we experience.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
The free will person see the passage as it is. The Calvinist reads something into the passage that is not there. The Calvinist only sees it differently because of the presupposition he brings to the text, that being that God chooses who gets saved. However, that is an unwarranted presupposition and is without Scriptural support

Also, that passage from Romans 11 is out of context. When Paul is speaking of Law and grace, he is speaking of the Mosaic Law. Free will people today are not under the Law and they cannot re-institute the Law. The Law/grace argument was an issue in Paul's day, not ours.

We are both claiming the same thing, the other reads their ideas into the text. So this means nobody knows the truth. But I've shown "whoever chooses to believe" is foreign to the text. Where I let the text say what it says; "whoever believes". Which means belief is a trait of those whom God saves. This leads to two different gospels. Possibly two different Christ's if denial of grace persists.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

1213 said:
Sorry, I disagree with that. Grace is not opposite of the law and free will can exist with the grace. I think grace means mercy and it means, sins have been forgiven. Forgiveness doesn’t mean law is not correct, it means, if person would deserve judgment, God is merciful and removes the judgment. If the law would not be valid, there would be no need for grace.

Person is under the law, if he obeys it to gain eternal life. If person obeys the law because he loves God and wants to do what is right, he is not under the law. By obeying the law, it is not possible to earn eternal life. But if one is righteous, he wants to do what is right, freely, not because he must. And those people who are righteous, will get eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

People are free to receive or reject God.

Grace is not grace if your will determines if you are saved or not.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

klutedavid said:
No they were not.
The great mystery to Abel, Abraham, and everyone else was Jesus Christ. Everyone before the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached were dead in their sin. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, not because Abraham knew the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past...

Abel and Abraham were never born again.

Abel and Abraham were not Christians.

Abel and Abraham did not receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The church did not exist and the church is defined as those that believe in the resurrected Christ.

You still have the cart in front of the horse.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe and respond.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

klutedavid said:
Your replies do not make any sense, in fact, your statements represent a contradiction.

Your claiming that a person is saved before they hear the gospel.

Your also claiming that a person receives the Holy Spirit at the same time as the person hears the gospel.

These two statements of yours are in a direct contradiction of one another.

A person cannot be saved before logically, they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

A person cannot receive the Holy Spirit (faith)
until they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Which you stated.

So you have created a contradiction; because you say that a person is saved before they hear the gospel. While at the same time claiming a person has the Spirit (faith) only on hearing the gospel.

There s no set pattern in scripture. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. All believers in the OT were saved having never heard the NT gospel.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

zoidar said:
I think John 3:16 by itself refutes most of them.

How so?

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

Halbhh said:
To me that's an ambiguous wording. Why? Because we ourselves are His work, what He made, and He said what He made was "very good" generally. So, technically, there is good stuff about us, and what is good about us is His work, His creation. (that doesn't mean we are 'good' on our own in the ultimate or true moral sense of course!; that's a whole different question entirely) What would not be ambiguous to me is to say simply something like 'all good things come from God'.

He makes from the same lump of wasted humanity, some appointed to mercy, the rest appointed to wrath.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

renniks said:
Da

Davie, old boy, it don't mean nothing if you just tell me. If you believe that is the case, show me where the scripture says it.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)
“But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,” Galatians 5:22 (AMP)

theoneandonlypencil · Nov 14, 2019

@Dave L @martymonster

This argument is ridiculous.

Let me ask this; do we really have nothing better to do with our lives than argue over abstract concepts that really have no bearing on current situations? It is not going to change any of our lives if free will is or is not real. Should you not be evangelizing and praising God? I'm sure he'd be more pleased if you spent your time doing work for the kingdom instead of arguing over(pardon me)useless concepts!

We are already divided to the point where we are the laughing stock of both Satan and the nonbelievers.

For the record, though, I do believe in free will. If God is controlling every move we make, not only is God the author of all of our sins, but nothing that has happened up until this point has meant anything because it was all predetermined; all we would be to God is some pitiful soap opera made for a being who only desires mindless worship. To even insinuate such a thing, to me, is the worst kind of blasphemy imaginable.

Just because God knows what we are going to do does not mean he forced us to choose. He exists outside of our concept of time and space--so yes, obviously he's going to know what we will do with the will given to us. God does not control us; but he does punish us for when we do wrong. Do you really think God is so sadistic, he would purposefully force us to commit sins only to punish us? Free-will is the most necessary component, in my opinion, to us being human.

Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Galatians 5:13
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

These are just three verses that imply free will. That is unless you think "choose who you serve" is actually code word for "God already chose for you"; or that "Do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh" is a meaningless warning.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If the Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance--please explain to me then, Calvinists, why God would purposefully choose to not save us. No matter what excuse you give, it would create a contradiction with scripture. The only answer could be that it is we who choose to separate ourselves from the Lord.

The idea that from the beginning, God has been choosing for us to sin and purposefully 'picks and chooses' who is saved, is sickening.

Lastly, you cannot be saved before hearing the gospel. There is no other way to salvation other than Jesus Christ. If you believe that it's 'the holy spirit' that saves you, you're teetering on the same lines as universalists. You cannot know the Holy Spirit unless you read His word.

zoidar · Nov 14, 2019

Dave L said:
How so?

Whoever believes will be saved. Indicating that all can be saved. That means the sacrifice of Christ for everyone, refuting limited atonement. That also means that unconditional election must be wrong, since the possibilty for anyone's salvation is there. Ok, refuting only the "U" and the "L". But in honesty it also refutes perserverance of the saints, since faith is a necessary condition and other verses shows us faith can be lost.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

zoidar said:
Whoever believes will be saved. Indicating that all can be saved. That means the sacrifice of Christ for everyone, refuting limited atonement. That also means that unconditional election must be wrong, since the possibilty for anyone's salvation is there. Ok, refuting only the "U" and the "L".

This assumes people are not incapable of believing in the true Christ. Which scripture proves they are.

theoneandonlypencil · Nov 14, 2019

Dave L said:
This assumes people are not incapable of believing in the true Christ. Which scripture proves they are.

No, it implies that anyone who chooses to believe can be sa--

Oh right, you don't believe in free will.

Also, if people are incapable of believing in Christ...does that not defeat the point of 'irresistable grace'?

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
No, it implies that anyone who chooses to believe can be sa--

Oh right, you don't believe in free will.

Also, if people are incapable of believing in Christ...does that not defeat the point of 'irresistable grace'?

Unless born again, people will only choose a false Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

theoneandonlypencil · Nov 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Unless born again, people will only choose a false Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Why don't you respond to my wall of text, post #174?

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
@Dave L @martymonster

This argument is ridiculous.

Let me ask this; do we really have nothing better to do with our lives than argue over abstract concepts that really have no bearing on current situations? It is not going to change any of our lives if free will is or is not real. Should you not be evangelizing and praising God? I'm sure he'd be more pleased if you spent your time doing work for the kingdom instead of arguing over(pardon me)useless concepts!

We are already divided to the point where we are the laughing stock of both Satan and the nonbelievers.

For the record, though, I do believe in free will. If God is controlling every move we make, not only is God the author of all of our sins, but nothing that has happened up until this point has meant anything because it was all predetermined; all we would be to God is some pitiful soap opera made for a being who only desires mindless worship. To even insinuate such a thing, to me, is the worst kind of blasphemy imaginable.

Just because God knows what we are going to do does not mean he forced us to choose. He exists outside of our concept of time and space--so yes, obviously he's going to know what we will do with the will given to us. God does not control us; but he does punish us for when we do wrong. Do you really think God is so sadistic, he would purposefully force us to commit sins only to punish us? Free-will is the most necessary component, in my opinion, to us being human.

Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Galatians 5:13
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

These are just three verses that imply free will. That is unless you think "choose who you serve" is actually code word for "God already chose for you"; or that "Do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh" is a meaningless warning.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If the Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance--please explain to me then, Calvinists, why God would purposefully choose to not save us. No matter what excuse you give, it would create a contradiction with scripture. The only answer could be that it is we who choose to separate ourselves from the Lord.

The idea that from the beginning, God has been choosing for us to sin and purposefully 'picks and chooses' who is saved, is sickening.

Lastly, you cannot be saved before hearing the gospel. There is no other way to salvation other than Jesus Christ. If you believe that it's 'the holy spirit' that saves you, you're teetering on the same lines as universalists. You cannot know the Holy Spirit unless you read His word.

How about the blind and deaf in Jesus' day? They could not hear the gospel.

The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

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