The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Dave L said:

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

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Dave L said:

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

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His student said:

There's some truth to that in some cases.

However, as I've said before I'll say again - I see it the same as the free will person sees it.

It has been my experience that the Calvinist see that particular passage the same way as the other side also - albeit with a few caveats concerning why and how a person comes to believe.

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Butch5 said:

Presuppositions definitely have bearing on how people see things.

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Mark Quayle said:

Agreed. Not only are even the most brilliant aware of it, yet unable to avoid it, but they admit to it. There is ALWAYS bias, and ignorance bypassed by presumption.

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martymonster said:

You really do have to ignore a lot of scripture to believe in the doctrine of free will.

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martymonster said:

The other day, I was on a thread about Calvinism. Now I'm not a Calvinist, but I watched a video between a Calvinist and an Armenian, that someone had posted in the thread. I have to say, the Calvinist absolutely wiped the floor with the Armenian, and the reason is, that the Calvinist was able to back up his position with scripture, and the Armenian couldn't. The Armenian used verses he could find with the word "choose" in them, and used his own reasoning. Now, the Armenian fellow used verses with the word "choose" in them, but didn't seem to realise that some of them contradicted his position, or opened up a can of worms.

Here's an example.

The Armenian used a verse where Israel chose not to obey God (I can't remember which one, and it doesn't matter) and then went on to say that they didn't, so God punished them. Here's the problem....

God usually deals with a disobedient Israel, by sending some Heathen nation against them. There are countless examples of this happening. Problem is, how does he do this exactly? You know, he never addressed that problem. Think about the ramifications of how God sends heathen nations against Israel for a minute....how does he do this? Well scripture tells us.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
Isa 10:9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
Isa 10:10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
Isa 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.


Think about how many times this happens throughout scripture. You really do have to ignore a lot of scripture to believe in the doctrine of free will.

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Dave L said:

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

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Butch5 said:

Actually, you don't. The problem is that Calvinism uses a lot of passages out of context. People have gotten so used to hearing these passage a certain way that it becomes hard to see them any other way. If you look at the passages that the Calvinists use in context and if you understand the big picture they don't support Calvinism. Another issue is that many are so entrenched in their theology that they just won't accept any thing else. I debate Calvinists and most of the time they just leave. They can't answer the text in context. When you put their proof texts in context you disarm them.

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renniks said:

You have to ignore most of the scripture to disbelieve in freewill.

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martymonster said:

Such as?

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martymonster said:

Christians love to claim that a scripture is out of context, if it doesn't fit their particular doctrines. I just quoted a large chunk of scripture that flies in the face of the free will doctrine. Can you explain to me how that is taken out of context?

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renniks said:

The scripture you quote does not fly in the face of free will..it all fits with God using his knowledge to know what men will do. He doesn't have to violate freewill to punish his people for their rebellion, which by the way couldn't happen if they didn't have free will.

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martymonster said:

Christians love to claim that a scripture is out of context, if it doesn't fit their particular doctrines. I just quoted a large chunk of scripture that flies in the face of the free will doctrine. Can you explain to me how that is taken out of context?

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Butch5 said:

I didn't say you took it out context. I said that the passages Calvinists use are taken out context. I'm not sure what your argument is concerning the passage you posted

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Tra Phull said:

Armenian is a nationality.
Arminian is a theological position.

My friend Gary was both - an Armenian Arminian.

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Dave L said:

This why I say (scripture says) God saves us apart from our wills.

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