What would you think of a pastor who used the pulpit to call an outside critic a 'moron?'

Ken Rank · Nov 13, 2019

justme6272 said:
The major church ministry this Christmas is to single moms in the city. The pastor decided to share some of the emails the church had received from people who knew about the effort, but were cynical. One man said, "How about single dads?" Another said, "You just want to get their money," presumably meaning, 'you just want to get them attending the church so they'll give regularly to the offering.'

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the 2nd person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

I would describe it as a smaller church, with a pastor that has an above average sense of humor, always trying to be funny at some point in most sermons. At such times, I usually am first and loudest to laugh, but didn't laugh this time. I was tired, not having had enough sleep, plus it wasn't funny to me.

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling. Such outsiders must have been people at home who watch live over the Internet, or follow on social media. No one in attendance would have been the people being critical via email.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature? He may have been using the congregation to vent frustrations. But still.....

P.S. - I wouldn't have put it past the pastor to have completely made up both stories. There is another instance in which I think he was lying to me about the issue of who exactly gets and reads the email that goes to the church's main 'info' email address. Unlike some much larger churches in town that I know of, they won't put the pastor email addresses and photos on their staff web page.

It sounds to me like he was trying to be funny. And, there is a difference between what one might WANT to say to another, and what one will actually say. There have been many times in the 20 years I have been in and around ministry where the old me's first thought has been, "you idiot" over something stupid somebody else said or did... or something even I said or did.

But, while I will call myself an idiot (or moron) I wouldn't call anyone else that and really neither did he if I am reading what you wrote correctly. We ALL at some point would love to say ____ to somebody but we then restrain as we should.

I clicked "unacceptable" in your poll and I am leaving it that way. But having read this he really didn't cross a line here.

AlexDTX · Nov 13, 2019

Redwingfan9 said:
The pulpit isn't the place for jokes or humor. The pulpit is the place for sober minded teaching of Biblical theology and to present the truth of Christ. That this pastor called someone a moron isn't the problem. The problem is that the pastor believes comedy is part of preaching.

Not. You make the pulpit as some kind of sacrosanct position. We are people, and humor is a welcome relief from heavy handed preaching. In fact, great humor often follows seriousness. It relieves tension.

Redwingfan9 · Nov 13, 2019

AlexDTX said:
Not. You make the pulpit as some kind of sacrosanct position. We are people, and humor is a welcome relief from heavy handed preaching. In fact, great humor often follows seriousness. It relieves tension.

Preaching is serious business, it's a sober exercise. One of the problems with evangelical preaching is that it's weak on substance and heavy on entertainment, laughs etc. The seriousness of the matter is lost in most churches and yes preaching is serious business. The church holds the keys to Heaven and Hell, it is not the place to yuck it up.

aiki · Nov 13, 2019

Paidiske said:
You might want to check your assumptions there...

Did you miss the question I asked at the end of my remark? Your comment here suggests that you did. I asked it because I didn't want to just assume I was talking to a layperson.

Paidiske said:
Honestly, until you live it, you really don't know. You can observe it from the outside, and you can get some idea. But the reality of carrying that identity, wherever you go and whatever you're doing; the burden of the confidential things you hear and can never repeat; the difficulties of the way people respond to you, and the costliness of caring for them even when it wounds you... you can't know it without doing it. I am finding that it is taking me years to grow into it.

I have experienced all of these things again and again in my role as teacher, discipler and Elder. I hate to burst your bubble, but you aren't in as rarified a circumstance as you seem to want to think.

aiki · Nov 13, 2019

topher694 said:
LOL, Yeeeeeah. Senior Pastor Chris here, nice to meet you.

Well, Senior Pastor Chris, I am surprised by your claim here. From what and how you've written in this thread I find it hard to believe. Maybe you're just having an off thread...

topher694 said:
As someone who has been on both sides, I assure you, you don't have a good idea what it's like to be a senior pastor. Many people think they do, including you yourself before you do it, but they are all wrong. Every single senior pastor I have ever spoken to knows this. Even being an associate is not the same.

I've encountered this attitude among certain pastors/priests a few times. It's bogus. An attempt, I think, to insulate against criticism and to rarify one's work as a pastor. I don't walk in your shoes any more than you do in mine and insofar as this is true neither of us can fully understand the experience of the other. But pastoral life and work is not some special, obscure mystery, open only to other (senior) pastors, whatever you might want to contend.

topher694 said:
Lost count after 500 or so. But leading a church is far, faaaaaaar more than preaching.

Obviously.

topher694 said:
So, to be clear. I was not making assumptions about the lives of strangers. I was speaking about the assumptions others, including strangers, have made about my life.

Oh, you kept your remark fairly generic - perhaps in anticipation of the objection I made to it - but it was issued in response to comments in my post and so it is not illegitimate, I think, for me to take it in some measure as an observation upon me personally - an observation that was mistaken.

topher694 said:
Perhaps I've been a bit sharper today than I might usually be. If so, that is because my grandfather - whom I was very close to - passed away today. And you know what happens when you are a pastor?

I'm sorry for your loss. My condolences. I, too, recently lost a dear friend, one I'd known for nearly thirty years. Presently, my grandmother's life hangs by a thread. A young fellow I'd been praying for and evangelizing was murdered gruesomely just a couple of weeks ago. Sorrow strikes us all.

topher694 said:
And you know what happens when you are a pastor? You actually consider how people will judge you if you don't act up to some sort of standard when you are grieving the same as anyone else.

This is part of the reason why the idea some pastors have of serving in a rarified sphere is a problem. It fosters unreasonable expectations in both the pastor and his brothers and sisters in Christ.

topher694 said:
I know cause I experienced it last year when by father passed, the day before father's day and I had to preach the next day.

Really? You HAD to preach the next day? No one else could? There's something seriously wrong with a church that would have such an unreasonable expectation of its pastor and is unable to temporarily field an alternative to the pulpit. Is your church very small?

topher694 said:
Most people are great, but certain eyes actually are just watching and waiting for you to be at your weakest and make a mistake so they can pounce and criticize.

This isn't at all unique to a pastor's life. Any believer who shines brightly for Christ comes under the same nasty scrutiny.

topher694 said:
Just like certain morons just watch and see that you are doing outreach for single moms and find a way to villainize and misrepresent your attempt to show compassion and generosity to your community, just sitting back making assumptions about things they don't have the slightest clue about.

Hebrews 12:2-3
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Matthew 5:11-12
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

topher694 · Nov 13, 2019

aiki said:
Well, Senior Pastor Chris, I am surprised by your claim here. From what and how you've written in this thread I find it hard to believe. Maybe you're just having an off thread...

I've encountered this attitude among certain pastors/priests a few times. It's bogus. An attempt, I think, to insulate against criticism and to rarify one's work as a pastor. I don't walk in your shoes any more than you do in mine and insofar as this is true neither of us can fully understand the experience of the other. But pastoral life and work is not some special, obscure mystery, open only to other (senior) pastors, whatever you might want to contend.

Obviously.

Oh, you kept your remark fairly generic - perhaps in anticipation of the objection I made to it - but it was issued in response to comments in my post and so it is not illegitimate, I think, for me to take it in some measure as an observation upon me personally - an observation that was mistaken.

I'm sorry for your loss. My condolences. I, too, recently lost a dear friend, one I'd known for nearly thirty years. Presently, my grandmother's life hangs by a thread. A young fellow I'd been praying for and evangelizing was murdered gruesomely just a couple of weeks ago. Sorrow strikes us all.

This is part of the reason why the idea some pastors have of serving in a rarified sphere is a problem. It fosters unreasonable expectations in both the pastor and his brothers and sisters in Christ.

Really? You HAD to preach the next day? No one else could? There's something seriously wrong with a church that would have such an unreasonable expectation of its pastor and is unable to temporarily field an alternative to the pulpit. Is your church very small?

This isn't at all unique to a pastor's life. Any believer who shines brightly for Christ comes under the same nasty scrutiny.

Hebrews 12:2-3
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Matthew 5:11-12
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Alright, whatever. I'm done with the micro-parsing, misrepresenting and passive-aggressive questioning and one-upping thing that is happening. You think you know better? Fine. Good for you.

AlexDTX · Nov 13, 2019

Redwingfan9 said:
Preaching is serious business, it's a sober exercise. One of the problems with evangelical preaching is that it's weak on substance and heavy on entertainment, laughs etc. The seriousness of the matter is lost in most churches and yes preaching is serious business. The church holds the keys to Heaven and Hell, it is not the place to yuck it up.

Personally, I think preaching in the pulpit is a misuse of preaching. Biblically preaching is for the lost. The entire church system is an abuse of body ministry. Saints are to gather to edify one another, not have one man's opinion only. We are all to participate in gatherings, not a select few.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

The entire pulpit system undermines the growth of the body of Christ. Growth does not come by hearing only, but by doing. In Corinth everyone had a chance to share what God gave them to share.

It is the pulpit system that has weakened the body of Christ so that we are no long salt and light. The church is being trampled upon by the world, because of this system.

If I am going to listen to one man's opinion in the pulpit, I want him to be interesting and funny.

You want to be serious? Obey Christ in the Great Commission. How many people have you led to Christ with the new birth and have discipled into the Kingdom? My guess is none or few. That is the fruit of most pulpits. No one equipped to share the Gospel.

anna ~ grace · Nov 13, 2019

justme6272 said:
Typically starts with a scripture reference, talks about that for 10-15 minutes, then inevitably veers off into a street preacher type of generic message that's a repeat of what he says each time, lasting an additional 40-45 minutes. He's probably been saying the same things for many years.
i.e. the world is sinful, people are lost, gays think they can marry, morality has decayed, just driving on the freeway is a very worldly place to be, heaven will be so much better than here, etc. Not really anything we all don't already know, but we get to listen to twice a week if we choose to go. Neither the music nor the teaching is a good reason to attend. I think people go cause they like the people there, it's informal, and the theology isn't off the deep end. I think location and church size are two big reasons too. I think few people would make the drive if it were 30 minutes away from where it is. Driving long distances to church is something much more people were willing to do back in the day, but now it seems they all want to be within 20 minutes. Looking back to when I was a kid, I can't believe people drove as far as they did to attend a certain church, and many did it three times per week. Gas was a lot cheaper then too, so that may have something to do with it.

That's informative. Is it a non-denom church?

Redwingfan9 · Nov 13, 2019

AlexDTX said:
Personally, I think preaching in the pulpit is a misuse of preaching. Biblically preaching is for the lost. The entire church system is an abuse of body ministry. Saints are to gather to edify one another, not have one man's opinion only. We are all to participate in gatherings, not a select few.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

The entire pulpit system undermines the growth of the body of Christ. Growth does not come by hearing only, but by doing. In Corinth everyone had a chance to share what God gave them to share.

It is the pulpit system that has weakened the body of Christ so that we are no long salt and light. The church is being trampled upon by the world, because of this system.

If I am going to listen to one man's opinion in the pulpit, I want him to be interesting and funny.

You want to be serious? Obey Christ in the Great Commission. How many people have you led to Christ with the new birth and have discipled into the Kingdom? My guess is none or few. That is the fruit of most pulpits. No one equipped to share the Gospel.

There has never been a church in the history of the world that has been full of saved people. There are always unsaved people in church who need to hear the gospel preached. As for preaching itself, it isn't intended to be one man's opinion but rather teaching of the world. Only elders are qualified to preach and teach.

Paidiske · Nov 13, 2019

I think it's helpful to recognise that how preaching functions depends a bit on the context. I wouldn't say preaching "in the pulpit" is a misuse of preaching, but I would say that it's not meant to stand alone. It's meant to stand alongside all sorts of contributions, formal and informal, from everyone else in the church (some during the service, some before and after the service, and during the rest of the week). If we narrow our ministry focus to what happens in the service for an hour or so on Sunday morning, we've already missed the point.

And preaching isn't, ideally, supposed to be the work of one voice in the congregation but a shared ministry. It's one of the things I don't like about my current church that I have no lay people who preach.

justme6272 · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
He didn't call the guy a moron, he said he would have liked to call him a moron. Big difference.

He did if the guy was listening. We'll never know who he was or whether he was or not.

justme6272 · Nov 13, 2019

AlexDTX said:
Not. You make the pulpit as some kind of sacrosanct position. We are people, and humor is a welcome relief from heavy handed preaching. In fact, great humor often follows seriousness. It relieves tension.

My favorite preacher tells his jokes close to the beginning, so the seriousness follows the humor. The up-front method has been more my experience over the years with other pastors as well, the ones who insist on telling a formal full blown joke, but this wasn't really that. This pastor doesn't do that. His wisecracks are more spontaneous one-liners on the fly, but in the case of the moron comment, I suspect it was 100% pre-meditated. He knew it would draw a big laugh.

justme6272 · Nov 13, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
That's informative. Is it a non-denom church?

Sort of. By the way, the pastor pokes full at Baptists on a regular basis, and that is the only denomination he makes fun of. On the surface, he's presumed to be joking, but since he does it with a dry, straight face, I'm not convinced he's only joking. He may really not like Baptists for all I know. I was raised Baptists but I don't call myself one now. When he makes fun of them, he's making fun of my family and ancestors more than me.

JackRT · Nov 13, 2019

Paidiske said:
. It's one of the things I don't like about my current church that I have no lay people who preach.

If you could foot my air fare from Canada (the antipodes) I would be pleased to do a few. Is there a good pub nearby?

Paidiske · Nov 13, 2019

JackRT said:
If you could foot my air fare from Canada (the antipodes) I would be pleased to do a few. Is there a good pub nearby?

Sadly, Jack, I think that will have to remain a pipe dream. I'm not sure of your criteria for a "good" pub but certainly there is no lack of pubs!

JackRT · Nov 13, 2019

Paidiske said:
Sadly, Jack, I think that will have to remain a pipe dream. I'm not sure of your criteria for a "good" pub but certainly there is no lack of pubs!

About the pubs, I knew that already. It is Australia after all. I was prepared to critique each one after suitable inspection.

Basil the Great · Nov 13, 2019

I seem to recall that Scripture warns against speaking ill of any man. I guess that few of us abide by such advice. Mom tells me that her grampa was the only man that she ever knew who did not speak ill of anyone.

JackRT · Nov 13, 2019

Basil the Great said:
I seem to recall that Scripture warns against speaking ill of any man. I guess that few of us abide by such advice. Mom tells me that her grampa was the only man that she ever knew who did not speak ill of anyone.

Was he mute from birth?

HardHead · Nov 13, 2019

The whole thing is meh.

Dave L · Nov 14, 2019

justme6272 said:
He did if the guy was listening. We'll never know who he was or whether he was or not.

It's doubtful he would say this if the guy was there.

What would you think of a pastor who used the pulpit to call an outside critic a 'moron?'

Acceptable behavior or unacceptable?

Acceptable

Unacceptable

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