The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Dave L said:

But one must be born again before one can keep the Law of love. Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

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But you cannot be considered to be born again unless you obey the first commandment.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ...

You must subject yourself to the law of Christ, you were commanded to believe in Jesus Christ.

Dave L said:

This is true, but....
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

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Which is why Calvinists usually insist that regeneration must take place before one can believe and be saved by so believing.

Lydia would be a good example of this concept.

renniks said:

You mean like the ones who told William Carey: "Young man, sit down! You are an enthusiast. When God pleases to convert the heathen, he'll do it without consulting you or me."

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Sorry but I wasn't at that particular meeting.

But Carey was a so called "Strict Particular Baptist" as were most of his associates throughout his adult life. Particular Baptists are Baptists who believe and teach a Calvinist or Reformed interpretation of the mechanics of salvation.

He remained of that persuasion throughout his life as a missionary.

God's Word Says:
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is ...

https://biblehub.com › romans
New International Version If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
‎Romans 10:9 KJV · ‎Romans 10:9 NLT · ‎Romans 10:10 · ‎Romans 10:9 NASB
and
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you ...

https://biblehub.com › acts
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and ... And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, "If you ...
‎Acts 16:31 KJV · ‎Acts 16:31 NIV · ‎Acts 16:32 · ‎Acts 16:30
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Man might say, contradicting God's Word : Salvation happens before belief is possible.

Dave L said:

Salvation happens before belief is possible.

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Now that is putting the cart before the horse.

The reconciliation that Jesus Christ instituted was predestined from all eternity. That adoption of us by Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity.

This reconciliation and adoption by Jesus Christ is initialized by that belief in Jesus Christ.

One cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless one first believes in Jesus Christ. You cannot believe in Jesus Christ unless you first hear the gospel.

Therefore, no one can be saved before they hear the gospel and respond to the call of the gospel.

Dave L said:

Not if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit...which it is.

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Are you saying that you receive the Holy Spirit before you hear the gospel?

Da

Dave L said:

Salvation happens before belief is possible.

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Davie, old boy, it don't mean nothing if you just tell me. If you believe that is the case, show me where the scripture says it.

His student said:

He remained of that persuasion throughout his life as a missionary.

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A lot of people teach like calvinist and act like arminians, thankfully.

Dave L said:

His choice cannot be for any good reason in us, then we share his glory.

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To me that's an ambiguous wording. Why? Because we ourselves are His work, what He made, and He said what He made was "very good" generally. So, technically, there is good stuff about us, and what is good about us is His work, His creation. (that doesn't mean we are 'good' on our own in the ultimate or true moral sense of course!; that's a whole different question entirely) What would not be ambiguous to me is to say simply something like 'all good things come from God'.

Dave L said:

Let's see your rebuttal of the 5 points for starters.
Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

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I think John 3:16 by itself refutes most of them.

Dave L said:

Often at the same time. But believing Jews since Abel were all born again apart from the Christian gospel.

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Your replies do not make any sense, in fact, your statements represent a contradiction.

Your claiming that a person is saved before they hear the gospel.

Your also claiming that a person receives the Holy Spirit at the same time as the person hears the gospel.

These two statements of yours are in a direct contradiction of one another.

A person cannot be saved before logically, they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

A person cannot receive the Holy Spirit (faith)
until they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Which you stated.

So you have created a contradiction; because you say that a person is saved before they hear the gospel. While at the same time claiming a person has the Spirit (faith) only on hearing the gospel.

Dave L said:

Often at the same time. But believing Jews since Abel were all born again apart from the Christian gospel.

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No they were not.
The great mystery to Abel, Abraham, and everyone else was Jesus Christ. Everyone before the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached were dead in their sin. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God, not because Abraham knew the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past...

Abel and Abraham were never born again.

Abel and Abraham were not Christians.

Abel and Abraham did not receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The church did not exist and the church is defined as those that believe in the resurrected Christ.

You still have the cart in front of the horse.

The other day, I was on a thread about Calvinism. Now I'm not a Calvinist, but I watched a video between a Calvinist and an Armenian, that someone had posted in the thread. I have to say, the Calvinist absolutely wiped the floor with the Armenian, and the reason is, that the Calvinist was able to back up his position with scripture, and the Armenian couldn't. The Armenian used verses he could find with the word "choose" in them, and used his own reasoning. Now, the Armenian fellow used verses with the word "choose" in them, but didn't seem to realise that some of them contradicted his position, or opened up a can of worms.

Here's an example.

The Armenian used a verse where Israel chose not to obey God (I can't remember which one, and it doesn't matter) and then went on to say that they didn't, so God punished them. Here's the problem....

God usually deals with a disobedient Israel, by sending some Heathen nation against them. There are countless examples of this happening. Problem is, how does he do this exactly? You know, he never addressed that problem. Think about the ramifications of how God sends heathen nations against Israel for a minute....how does he do this? Well scripture tells us.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
Isa 10:9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
Isa 10:10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
Isa 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.


Think about how many times this happens throughout scripture. You really do have to ignore a lot of scripture to believe in the doctrine of free will.

Dave L said:

...
In this passage, grace is the opposite of law.... ...But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save....

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Sorry, I disagree with that. Grace is not opposite of the law and free will can exist with the grace. I think grace means mercy and it means, sins have been forgiven. Forgiveness doesn’t mean law is not correct, it means, if person would deserve judgment, God is merciful and removes the judgment. If the law would not be valid, there would be no need for grace.

Person is under the law, if he obeys it to gain eternal life. If person obeys the law because he loves God and wants to do what is right, he is not under the law. By obeying the law, it is not possible to earn eternal life. But if one is righteous, he wants to do what is right, freely, not because he must. And those people who are righteous, will get eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

People are free to receive or reject God.

Dave L said:

You are confusing free will and law in the OT which could not save. With Grace in the NT.

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I notice you fired an unsubstantiated shot accross the bow.



In all honesty, I have confused nothing, I believe, in my heart you are standing on one of the two major, man made, positions on the scriptures and have imagined me standing on the far side from you. Not True at all!



There are very few of us but I am a Biblicist and that means I believe every word and concept found in the English Translations, save a couple of intentionally errant versions, otherwise, every word from Genesis one through the very last word of Revelation 22, as they relate to the Ancient Transcripts are true.



For anyone to become a follower of dead men it is quite true that portions of the Holy Scriptures must be ignored, completely, instead of following Ruach (likely known to you as the Holy Spirit) as He teaches each of us why the New Testament is the completion of the Adamic, the Abrahamic and the Mosaic Covenants.



If you and/or any Baby Christians through the Elder Laymen here will surrender a year or so, it took me three years, the first time, but please, surrender the most tender portions of the heart of your being to Ruach or by what ever name you call upon the one commonly known by the translation, the Holy Spirit.



If you mean it, YHWH will claim it and come unto you through Ruach. one of best easially learned about the Final Renewed Covenant is that it is a bea8utiful reflection of the first three Covenants between our Elohim and His Crowning Creation, man. A good copy of any Christian Bible with a good chain reference, such as the Thompson Chain Reference, points the New Testament Scriptures back to their point of origin, the Old Testament.



Now, if every word of the the translated transcripts is the truth there must be a reconciliation poin and indeed there is.



We exist in a Space/Time continuum created by the Elohim that has no beginning nor is there any end of Him. This being true, Our Elohim, commonly and without reverence called God, spelled god by many as god, no reverence what-so-ever! But YHWH is, none the less, not dead and He is not dead!



We, every one of us, should gather that with YHWH there is nothing we touch, smell or see that is not the Creative Work of the Most High God, our Elohim, YHWH. It is recorded in the Word that before YHWH created the world He knew every event that would take place here. This is YHWH’s fore knowledge that we have so many issues dealing with.



Free Will and Predestination are taught in the Holy Writ left for our education. Therefore it is reasonable to understand that both are true and must be reconciled. Therefore it is also understood that YHWH has empowered us understand… if we have the will to do so.



So our Elohim, from outside our Time/Space Continuum created us that we might learn to love him in the same unconditional manor that He loves us. However, before He created on the first day He knew that on January 1, 1990 that Bill Taylor would replace his idol, the guitar, with Only Holy Elohim, YHWH and from that day forward swerve no other creation nor created being… He entered my name

into the Book of Life! YHWHl, not removing my free will Predestined me to be His before I did as He knew I would do.



Am I one hundred percent certain that I have gleaned all there is to know what our Elohim wants me to know about this or, for that fact, any other matter? I am absolutely certain of my stupidity in this and all other Spiritual Matters!



The issue here is the truth of the Word of YHWH. Since it is true because it is the message left for us to learn of these issues and YHWH never lies and all of the original transcripts are truth. We cannot cherry-pick as the Armenians and the Calvinists have done, trying to prove some silly point and ignore the Context and the Content of the rest of scripture.



Now, please, do not return with another ill aimed left jab. If you do I will write you off as rude, crude and possibly not recoverable. I seek to teach the unlearned, not to pretend I am as holy as you are, I only seek to help His Lambs to find the Narrow Path. And that strike you tried to land had not the Love of Mashiah anywhere near it.



Please, still your knees.

Dave L said:

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

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The free will person see the passage as it is. The Calvinist reads something into the passage that is not there. The Calvinist only sees it differently because of the presupposition he brings to the text, that being that God chooses who gets saved. However, that is an unwarranted presupposition and is without Scriptural support

Also, that passage from Romans 11 is out of context. When Paul is speaking of Law and grace, he is speaking of the Mosaic Law. Free will people today are not under the Law and they cannot re-institute the Law. The Law/grace argument was an issue in Paul's day, not ours.

Butch5 said:

The free will person see the passage as it is. The Calvinist reads something into the passage that is not there.......
The Calvinist only sees it differently because of the presupposition he brings to the text, that being that God chooses who gets saved.

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There's some truth to that in some cases.

However, as I've said before I'll say again - I see it the same as the free will person sees it.

It has been my experience that the Calvinist see that particular passage the same way as the other side also - albeit with a few caveats concerning why and how a person comes to believe.