The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Dave L

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Funny, I was going to reply the other day (but had to go do stuff) about 'free will is only just the ability to make choices'.

But!...It came to mind:

"It's Christ we are being drawn to, because of Who He is, because of His Words."

So...it's kinda both (as we probably all already thought, everyone perhaps, to begin with) -- we are able to choose Christ because He is Christ, because we are drawn to Him.

In other words, there isn't' a difference between the 2 positions.

Put another way, any kind of will/choice is already God-given in the most key sense: these bodies and minds are His design, our abilities are the abilities He made, from Him, His.
Not really, you must be saved before you can hear and respond to his words. The flesh cannot hear nor desire to respond to the true Christ, only idols.
 
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Halbhh

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Not really, you must be saved before you can hear and respond to his words. The flesh cannot hear nor desire to respond to the true Christ, only idols.

I was trying to get more clear in a late addition -- I think there isn't a (real, genuine) difference between the 2 positions (though of course there is a seeming difference).

Lemme see if I can communicate what I mean (it isn't necessarily easy to do).

Put another way, any kind of will/choice is already God-given in the most key sense: these bodies and minds are His design, our abilities are the abilities He made, from Him, His.

Maybe it's all wording. If a person is humble, God will give Grace to them.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

So, then, God pulls individuals, because He chooses to. Right? I think you already agree on that.

And He chooses to it seems at least in part (or even primarily) by the scriptural direct information just above.
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(there is still stuff to discuss, because I think being humble or not is a genuine under-ability-to-choose thing, even if one's temperament is this or that. Anyone can choose to be humble, in certain moments.)
 
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Ohj1n37

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In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.

There is a relationship between the new and old testament. Jesus did not do away with the law he is the fulfillment of the law. The law was designed to show that humans are unable to live up to God standards alone. We need God's help to become good people and that can only be achieved through Jesus.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace.

Many have trouble understanding the relationship between free will and predestination. The conclusion you have come to is not necessary. Free will and predestination needs to be defined and then the answer becomes apparent. There is no need to alter the interpretation of the Bible depending on if you are reading the new or old scripture. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

Here's a piece of a post I made on different thread. Hope it proves to be interesting.

Some people think because God knows what will happen that this means we do not get to choose, but this is not true. Just because God knows what you or anybody will choose before you choose it doesn't mean you don't have free will. God simply knows what you will choose before you choose. This is like if you were to know the future does suddenly everybody from the parts of the future you know not have free will? Free will does not require not knowing what someone will choose. Free will requires that someone has the capability to make a decision without being forced to come to that decision.


Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

Grace still requires a choice. Do you choose to follow God or do you not? Realizing that the Bible is one interwoven story of God's interaction with his people, us, is what allows it all to make sense.

Here's another piece of a post from another thread to clarify.

I think the key component to faith is trust. God's covenant with Abraham was based on trust. Abraham knew God was real, he talked to Him. It was the act of trusting God to provide a sacrifice in place of Issac that the covenant was made. The same thing with Jesus. All the early Christians knew Jesus and saw Him perform miracles. What defines a Christian is trusting that Jesus is who He says He is, that He is God, and that you trust Him so much that you surrender your life to Him.

The way people are saved today is the way people were saved in the past. Do you trust God or do you not?
 
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Dave L

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There is a relationship between the new and old testament. Jesus did not do away with the law he is the fulfillment of the law. The law was designed to show that humans are unable to live up to God standards alone. We need God's help to become good people and that can only be achieved through Jesus.



Many have trouble understanding the relationship between free will and predestination. The conclusion you have come to is not necessary. Free will and predestination needs to be defined and then the answer becomes apparent. There is no need to alter the interpretation of the Bible depending on if you are reading the new or old scripture. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

Here's a piece of a post I made on different thread. Hope it proves to be interesting.






Grace still requires a choice. Do you choose to follow God or do you not? Realizing that the Bible is one interwoven story of God's interaction with his people, us, is what allows it all to make sense.

Here's another piece of a post from another thread to clarify.



The way people are saved today is the way people were saved in the past. Do you trust God or do you not?
Salvation always was grace, regeneration (actual salvation), faith, repentance in that order.
 
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Dave L

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I was trying to get more clear in a late addition -- I think there isn't a (real, genuine) difference between the 2 positions (though of course there is a seeming difference).

Lemme see if I can communicate what I mean (it isn't necessarily easy to do).

Put another way, any kind of will/choice is already God-given in the most key sense: these bodies and minds are His design, our abilities are the abilities He made, from Him, His.

Maybe it's all wording. If a person is humble, God will give Grace to them.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

So, then, God pulls individuals, because He chooses to. Right? I think you already agree on that.

And He chooses to it seems at least in part (or even primarily) by the scriptural direct information just above.
-------------
(there is still stuff to discuss, because I think being humble or not is a genuine under-ability-to-choose thing, even if one's temperament is this or that. Anyone can choose to be humble, in certain moments.)
The New Birth saves. It creates a hunger for righteousness and obedience. = drawn to Christ.
 
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renniks

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if the will is involved, you save yourself.
Only scripture claims the will is involved. So I guess you're arguing with scripture.
ESV: "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." ... Romans 10:10, CSB: "One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation."

Those are action verbs; believe and confess.
 
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Halbhh

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The New Birth saves. It creates a hunger for righteousness and obedience. = drawn to Christ.
Yes, that's true.

Admittedly we talk of things that are mystery when we talk much of how God chooses to draw to Him persons who are not yet saved, but we do know certain things, as in the scripture just above. I'm always content to know that we cannot fully know all things about God's will, but only know what He has chosen to reveal, only.
 
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I defined Grace. If you believe otherwise perhaps you could prove it from scripture?
Or, perhaps you could prove from Scripture that grace is merely "undeserved favor of God towards humans", and nothing more than that, since the early Church believed that grace is nothing less than the living, transformative force emanating from God, by means of which the very Life of God is participated in by us and shared by Him. They knew Scripture probably more thoroughly than any who came after, and saw in grace nothing less than the power which flowed out of Christ when the woman with the issue of blood had touched the hem of His garment, and was immediately cured. Is this power (grace) a living property of God's nature, or is it something less? Is grace just and abstract idea, as some would have us believe, that we can plug into a man-made formula of salvation, all such formulas being false, because they are from man, and not from God?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If a person delights in the Lord then whatever they choose is going to be consistent with their new heart and spirit, and so they won't choose anything that would not give praise and glory to Christ. And they wouldn't go anywhere they wouldn't want to take Jesus with them.
Good until the last sentence.
Well, maybe still good - if they have a new heart and mind and spirit, with Christ's attitude, then good.
If they still want to go places they don't know they should not go, they might want to take Jesus with them.
The purifying / sanctification may (or always does?) take a while.
Once they are fully obedient to the Father and Hearing AND DOing His Word, they don't want to take Jesus anywhere, they follow Him everywhere He goes.
 
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His student

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Which makes no difference whatsoever. Could they do otherwise? Not if they are elect according to Calvinists definition of election. So, it's all just the same old song and dance to get people to embrace the contradictions.
You are quite right what you say in your first sentence.

All those the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will eventually come to the Son.

That is indeed what the scriptures teach.

But they do not teach that those people are saved before they actually come to the Son.

That's why we Christians preach the gospel throughout the world - and most prominent among those gospel preaching Christians in the so called "great century of foreign missions" were the Calvinists.

Whether a person believes that men can be saved without hearing and responding to the gospel message makes all the difference in the world.
Salvation happens when the Spirit imparts the New Birth before any act of the will creating a new person whose nature it is to believe and seek repentance.
We are born again by believing the Word of God.

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:23

We are not born again so we can believe the Word of God.

Regenerated, if you will - enlightened, if you will - drawn to the Son, if you will - have our hearts opened by God, if you will - but we are not born again so we can believe the Word of God.

We believe the Word of God (by grace) so we can be born again.
 
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klutedavid

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You are confusing free will and law in the OT which could not save. With Grace in the NT.
There is also law spoken of in the New Testament.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You must keep and apply these two new commandments because you have been commanded to keep them by Jesus Christ.

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
 
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renniks

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That's why we Christians preach the gospel throughout the world - and most prominent among those gospel preaching Christians in the so called "great century of foreign missions" were the Calvinists.
You mean like the ones who told William Carey: "Young man, sit down! You are an enthusiast. When God pleases to convert the heathen, he'll do it without consulting you or me."
 
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Dave L

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There is also law spoken of in the New Testament.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You must keep and apply these two new commandments because you have been commanded to keep them by Jesus Christ.

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
But one must be born again before one can keep the Law of love. Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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You are quite right what you say in your first sentence.

All those the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will eventually come to the Son.

That is indeed what the scriptures teach.

But they do not teach that those people are saved before they actually come to the Son.

That's why we Christians preach the gospel throughout the world - and most prominent among those gospel preaching Christians in the so called "great century of foreign missions" were the Calvinists.

Whether a person believes that men can be saved without hearing and responding to the gospel message makes all the difference in the world.

We are born again by believing the Word of God.

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:23

We are not born again so we can believe the Word of God.

Regenerated, if you will - enlightened, if you will - drawn to the Son, if you will - have our hearts opened by God, if you will - but we are not born again so we can believe the Word of God.

We believe the Word of God (by grace) so we can be born again.
This is true, but....
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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Or, perhaps you could prove from Scripture that grace is merely "undeserved favor of God towards humans", and nothing more than that, since the early Church believed that grace is nothing less than the living, transformative force emanating from God, by means of which the very Life of God is participated in by us and shared by Him. They knew Scripture probably more thoroughly than any who came after, and saw in grace nothing less than the power which flowed out of Christ when the woman with the issue of blood had touched the hem of His garment, and was immediately cured. Is this power (grace) a living property of God's nature, or is it something less? Is grace just and abstract idea, as some would have us believe, that we can plug into a man-made formula of salvation, all such formulas being false, because they are from man, and not from God?

This why I say (scripture says) God saves us apart from our wills.
 
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klutedavid

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Free will applies to law. The law holds people accountable. Grace is not law. Free will has no effect on grace.
Free will does not apply to the law, because no one including Moses has ever obeyed the law.

The law condemned everyone period.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The law only delivered an awareness of sin simply because you disobey the law. You cannot freely choose to obey the law and that would contradict the intention, the reason for the law.

You can freely choose to do evil but no one can freely choose to love others. The history of the world is about slavery, control, genocide, wars, civil unrest, domestic disputes.

Free will does not exist, free will is an illusion, you stand condemned already in your flesh.
 
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Dave L

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Yes, that's true.

Admittedly we talk of things that are mystery when we talk much of how God chooses to draw to Him persons who are not yet saved, but we do know certain things, as in the scripture just above. I'm always content to know that we cannot fully know all things about God's will, but only know what He has chosen to reveal, only.
His choice cannot be for any good reason in us, then we share his glory.
 
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