The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

zoidar · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will trust in your willingness to believe thinking it triggers God to save you.

I believe in free will. I trust in Christ only for my salvation.

It sounds a bit like saying that the "no free-willers" trust in the predestination for salvation.

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

zoidar said:
I believe in free will. I trust in Christ only for my salvation.

It sounds a bit like saying that the "no free-willers" trust in the predestination for salvation.

Christ saves apart from any willingness in us.

zoidar · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Christ saves apart from any willingness in us.

I don't agree with this either. Do you mean before or after faith?

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

zoidar said:
I don't agree with this either. Do you mean before or after faith?

both.

His student · Nov 13, 2019

Tra Phull said:
The way to Universalism is there, but I can't buy into it. Neither can I buy into Annihilation.

renniks said:
Dave is perhaps that rare one in a million honest calvinist that lays out the logical consequences of the doctrine as it really is. I happen to think he's way off, but at least he doesn't do the normal song and dance routine.

I'm familiar with what you consider the song and dance routine.

But Dave is the first person I have ever met who actually believes the straw man that anti Calvinists often put forward.

They say that, according to Calvinists, men are justified just because they are among the elect and not through actual faith that they must profess.

Dave seems to say the same thing.

Both Dave and the anti Calvinists are wrong.

No one is saved by virtue of them being the elect of God in and of itself. As I and every Calvinist worthy of the name knows men are enemies of God and vessels of wrath up untll the moment they exercise saving faith. That is as true for the elect as it is for those who are not elect.

Dave L said:
.....everybody hates God and worships idols instead, even calling them by his name. So unless God saves a person through the New Birth, they cannot believe in the true Christ or desire a holy life.

Actually - if one does not believe in the true Christ he cannot be saved. The new birth comes though faith in the Word of God.

If one has not believed on Christ and received the new birth through that belief he can not and will not desire a holy life.

But don't get the cart before the horse. It all comes in that order - albeit that all of those things are preceded by election, drawing and calling.

But the fact that it is God who authors your faith does not change the fact that you must (and will inevitably as Christ said) exercise that faith and be born again.

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

His student said:
I'm familiar with what you consider the song and dance routine.

But Dave is the first person I have ever met who actually believes the straw man that anti Calvinists often put forward.

They say that, according to Calvinists, men are justified just because they are among the elect and not through actual faith that they must profess.

Dave seems to say the same thing.

Both Dave and the anti Calvinists are wrong.

No one is saved by virtue of them being the elect of God in and of itself. As I and every Calvinist worthy of the name knows men are enemies of God and vessels of wrath up untll the moment they exercise saving faith. That is as true for the elect as it is for those who are not elect.

Actually - if one does not believe in the true Christ he cannot be saved. The new birth comes though faith in the Word of God.

If one has not believed on Christ and received the new birth through that belief he can not and will not desire a holy life.

But don't get the cart before the horse. It all comes in that order - albeit that all of those things are preceded by election, drawing and calling.

Have you ever proven Calvinism wrong using scripture?

zoidar · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Have you ever proven Calvinism wrong using scripture?

You can "prove" any doctrine wrong by using scripture. It's about interpretation.

His student · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Have you ever proven Calvinism wrong using scripture?

What part of Calvinism do you refer to?

Some of their beliefs I have refuted and some (the ones that are correct) I have not and indeed cannot.

But the fact is - part of your teaching is not Calvinism.

John Calvin and even virtually all of the wood be Calvinists teaching currently did and do not believe that a person is saved first (in the most basic sense of the word - i.e. justified) and then believes.

You have presented the cart before the horse. Belief (the exercise of your God given faith) inevitably issues in justification through faith.

But no one is justified first and is able to believe because of it. Rather one is justified because of belief. Albeit they are elected and called by God before that belief issues forth.

Although I take issue with some planks of so called Calvinism - it is not Calvinism itself I am taking issue with. It is your non Calvinist plank that I am taking issue with.

Correct that and it's unlikely that you and I would have any issues between us - at least not in this thread.

And - yes - the idea of salvation is initial (justifying) and it is ongoing (sanctification and glorification). Everyone know that. But it is the initial phase of salvation that I am dealing with here. It is in that that you have the cart before the horse.

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

His student said:
What part of Calvinism do you refer to?

Some of their beliefs I have refuted and some (the ones that are correct) I have not and indeed cannot.

But the fact is - part of your teaching is not Calvinism.

John Calvin and even virtually all of the wood be Calvinists teaching currently did and do not believe that a person is saved first (in the most basic sense of the word - i.e. justified) and then believes.

You have presented the cart before the horse. Belief (the exercise of your God given faith) inevitably issues in justification through faith.

But no one is justified first and is able to believe because of it. Rather one is justified because of belief. Albeit they are elected and called by God before that belief issues forth.

Although I take issue with some planks of so called Calvinism - it is not Calvinism itself I am taking issue with. It is your non Calvinist plank that I am taking issue with.

Correct that and it's unlikely that you and I would have any issues between us - at least not in this thread.

Let's begin with the doctrines of sin and grace.

Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

zoidar said:
You can "prove" any doctrine wrong by using scripture. It's about interpretation.

Let's see your rebuttal of the 5 points for starters.
Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

His student · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Let's begin with the doctrines of sin and grace.
Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

Why?

What I am saying concerning the order of salvation is not Arminian. It is Calvinist.

I have the Reformed theology book you point to among a great many others.

I studied with R.C. Sproul and I have taught Reformed doctrine for many years.

Your formulation of being saved before belief would be pointed out as incorrect in any legitimate Reformed setting.

Certainly Loraine Boettner would definitely agree with me on this point.

I have no problem with your discussing free will from a Reformed point of view. I have a problem with your stating the Reformed point of view wrong.

renniks · Nov 13, 2019

His student said:
No one is saved by virtue of them being the elect of God in and of itself. As I and every Calvinist worthy of the name knows men are enemies of God and vessels of wrath up untll the moment they exercise saving faith. That is as true for the elect as it is for those who are not elect.

Which makes no difference whatsoever. Could they do otherwise? Not if they are elect according to Calvinists definition of election. So, it's all just the same old song and dance to get people to embrace the contradictions.

Tra Phull · Nov 13, 2019

Wood be Calvinists...

Pretty wooden, all right

A God-ordained typo

But the ORDER is correct that His stew proposes - first is belief, then salvation

Not "ZAP -yer saved - now you believe"

aiki · Nov 13, 2019

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org search "Molinism"

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

His student said:
Why?

What I am saying concerning the order of salvation is not Arminian. It is Calvinist.

I have the Reformed theology book you point to among a great many others.

I studied with R.C. Sproul and I have taught Reformed doctrine for many years.

Your formulation of being saved before belief would be pointed out as incorrect in any legitimate Reformed setting.

Certainly Loraine Boettner would definitely agree with me on this point.

I have no problem with your discussing free will from a Reformed point of view. I have a problem with your stating the Reformed point of view wrong.

I'm not Reformed but believe the 1st 3 points are correct. The Reformed are inconsistent when they say the Spirit makes people willing to comply. This presupposes law and obedience or works. Salvation happens when the Spirit imparts the New Birth before any act of the will creating a new person whose nature it is to believe and seek repentance.

renniks · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Christ saves apart from any willingness in us.

But that's not what scripture says. It says IF you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. It doesn't say then he will save people against their will.

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

renniks said:
But that's not what scripture says. It says IF you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. It doesn't say then he will save people against their will.

Saved people do this. It is not a magical incantation people recite to save themselves.

renniks · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
Saved people do this. It is not a magical incantation people recite to save themselves.

No, unsaved people do this and become saved, exactly as the verse says.

Dave L · Nov 13, 2019

renniks said:
No, unsaved people do this and become saved, exactly as the verse says.

= you save yourself through works .

Halbhh · Nov 13, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

Funny, I was going to reply the other day (but had to go do stuff) about 'free will is only just the ability to make choices'.

But!...It came to mind:

"It's Christ we are being drawn to, because of Who He is, because of His Words."

So...it's kinda both (as we probably all already thought, everyone perhaps, to begin with) -- we are able to choose Christ because He is Christ, because we are drawn to Him.

In other words, there isn't a (real, genuine) difference between the 2 positions (though of course there is a seeming difference).

Put another way, any kind of will/choice is already God-given in the most key sense: these bodies and minds are His design, our abilities are the abilities He made, from Him, His.

Maybe it's all wording. If a person is humble, God will give Grace to them.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

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(there is still stuff to discuss, because I think being humble or not is a genuine under-ability-to-choose thing, even if one's temperament is this or that. Anyone can choose to be humble, in certain moments.)

The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

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