THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?


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nolidad

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Produce Scripture declaring that God covenants with the unfaithful and disobedient.

Reconcile it with Hebrews 10:28.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Old covenant was with the whole house of Israel.

The Adamic Covenant was with sinful Adam!

The Noahic Covenant was with sinful Noah who found grace!

The Abrahamic covenant was made with Abraham! He sure did sin.

The Davidic covenant was with David of the Uriah/Bathsheba affair !

Should I go on?
 
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nolidad

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Your claim above is not found in the Bible.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Mat_21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

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Only if you reject Scripture as written and replace it with some mystical interpretation!

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Now I realize that being an allegorist you have forgotten normal rules of grammar so let us take a small refresher course shall we?

Blindness is in part. That means not all Israel is blinded as Paul reiterated in Corinthians as well. This is the remnant! But there is also a caveat- until the fullness of the Gentiles come in- this means that their partial blindness lasts until the full number (pleroma) of gentiles come in--then ALL not some or many or most- but ALL Israel will be saved!

Verses 26 and 27 are very very very critical! Jesus will turn ungodliness from Israel and He will take away their sins. Now we all know Paul knew Jews were already getting saved- but as he wrote this in a future tense he was writing about something different than simply Jews turning to Messiah!


2 Corinthians 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
 
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BABerean2

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Now I realize that being an allegorist you have forgotten normal rules of grammar so let us take a small refresher course shall we?


If Jeremiah 31:31-34 was only an allegory the author of Hebrews 8:6-13, would not have quoted the text word-for-word.
Now I realize you being a Dispensationalist will attempt to ignore the word "now" found in the passage from Hebrews 8, and also in Hebrews 10:16-18.


You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Christ returns at the fullness of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24-28.

The Greek word "houto" in Romans 11:26 refers to the "manner" of salvation, instead of the timing of salvation, as Dispensationalists often infer.


In what "manner" will all Israel be saved? See verse 23 for the answer.

There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Christ took away the sins of all races of people at Calvary.
It is not a future event. Notice the OT text in Uppercase letters.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."




By the way, I do not mind you talking down to me, if that is what is necessary to make your doctrine work.
That methodology is often used by those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.
 
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jgr

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31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Old covenant was with the whole house of Israel.

The Adamic Covenant was with sinful Adam!

The Noahic Covenant was with sinful Noah who found grace!

The Abrahamic covenant was made with Abraham! He sure did sin.

The Davidic covenant was with David of the Uriah/Bathsheba affair !

Should I go on?

What about these thousands of souls?

Exodus 32:28; Numbers 16:49; Numbers 25:9; 1 Samuel 4:10; 1 Samuel 6:19.

Should I go on?

They were of the house of Israel.

How dare God slay them. Didn't you say that they had a covenant with Him?

What was the difference between them and Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David?

I'll let you puzzle that out.

In so doing, you'll discover who in Israel God covenanted with.

If you're willing.
 
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nolidad

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If Jeremiah 31:31-34 was only an allegory the author of Hebrews 8:6-13, would not have quoted the text word-for-word.
Now I realize you being a Dispensationalist will attempt to ignore the word "now" found in the passage from Hebrews 8, and also in Hebrews 10:16-18.


You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Christ returns at the fullness of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24-28.

The Greek word "houto" in Romans 11:26 refers to the "manner" of salvation, instead of the timing of salvation, as Dispensationalists often infer.


In what "manner" will all Israel be saved? See verse 23 for the answer.

There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Christ took away the sins of all races of people at Calvary.
It is not a future event. Notice the OT text in Uppercase letters.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;

Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."



By the way, I do not mind you talking down to me, if that is what is necessary to make your doctrine work.
That methodology is often used by those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.

Well your lack of understanding how houto is used notwithstanding- you are still wrong! Yes they will come to belief in Messiah! When the vail is lifted and when god fulfills His covenant that is now in effect partially but not fully with Israel and Judah! In case you do not know houto is an adverb and describes how something occurs before or after something. so once the full number of gentiles are come in in this way all Israel will be saved. ALL Israel!

Christ took away the sins of all races of people at Calvary.
It is not a future event. Notice the OT text in Uppercase letters.

So I take it then you are a universalist?

In what "manner" will all Israel be saved? See verse 23 for the answer.
There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church in the passage.

Wrong again, but nice try!

ALL here means everyone not just some! And what is the manner?

Verse 26 after the pleroma of gentiles are come in!

If it appears I talk down to you, it is because you have abused grammar, greek, Hebrew and Gods Word!

And if you bothered to understand dispensational Israelogy, you would not mimic your masters with that phony two people of God lie!
 
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nolidad

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What about these thousands of souls?

Exodus 32:28; Numbers 16:49; Numbers 25:9; 1 Samuel 4:10; 1 Samuel 6:19.

Should I go on?

They were of the house of Israel.

How dare God slay them. Didn't you say that they had a covenant with Him?

What was the difference between them and Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David?

I'll let you puzzle that out.

In so doing, you'll discover who in Israel God covenanted with.

If you're willing.

Well I can't help if you equate God killing Jews with them losing salvation! Maybe if you read the Mosaic Covenant in total you would see it was a temporary conditional covenant with both blessings and punishments. None of those had anything to do with Salvation!

I am not going to venture who was and was not saved in OT Israel just like I won't venture to guess who is and is not saved sitting in church pews today! that is Gods business!

And in case you want to read the Bible as written and not rewritten by some allegorist in times past- you would know that the Mosaic Covenant was made to every single person of the twelve tribes of Israel!

Just like the new covenant which is now being mediated by Jesus (though not completely enacted as all covenants had delays in their full enactment) is going to ber made with a future generation of Jews. Three days before Jesus returns to be exact!

As declared by Gods Word without rewriting by men- 2/3 of all Jews will die during the 70th week of Daniel and the remaining 1/3 (nearly all if not all) holed up in Petra will have the vail removed and they will accept Jesus as Messiah, cry blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord which will bring Jesus back to earth !
 
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jgr

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And in case you want to read the Bible as written and not rewritten by some allegorist in times past- you would know that the Mosaic Covenant was made to every single person of the twelve tribes of Israel!

Yes, the Mosaic Covenant was forcibly imposed upon "every single person of the twelve tribes of Israel", their faith and obedience was irrelevant, and they will all be saved.

It matters not that God slew the unfaithful and disobedient, because God makes covenants with the dead.

What perverse version of scripture are you reading from?

Return it to the round file from whence it came.

Just like the new covenant which is now being mediated by Jesus (though not completely enacted as all covenants had delays in their full enactment) is going to ber made with a future generation of Jews. Three days before Jesus returns to be exact!

As declared by Gods Word without rewriting by men- 2/3 of all Jews will die during the 70th week of Daniel and the remaining 1/3 (nearly all if not all) holed up in Petra will have the vail removed and they will accept Jesus as Messiah, cry blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord which will bring Jesus back to earth !

You have yet to disclose how God identifies a Jew.

I almost forgot. He has some enigmatic esoteric criteria other than faith and obedience.

Judas Iscariot qualifies. Caiaphas the high priest qualifies. All responsible for Christ's death qualify, because "they will look on Him whom they pierced", and then be forcibly saved, according to dispensational fantasy.

Irrespective of their faith and obedience. Those characteristics are not found in the dispensational lexicon.

Daniel and Christ rebuke and repudiate your decapitated 70th week in the perfect, complete, and final sacrifice and accomplishments of the Lamb of God at Calvary.

The fallacies and fantasies of modernist dispensational futurism notwithstanding.
 
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BABerean2

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So I take it then you are a universalist?

No way. Do not try to pin the error of Universalism on me.

See the verse below for those who are "born-again" of the Spirit of God, through faith.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The above occurred to about 3,000 Israelites on the Day of Pentecost, when they accepted the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is found below in the words of those who promoted your doctrine at Dallas Theological Seminary.
If you think it is a "lie", then you may want to re-think what you have been promoting here.



Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.



Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson speaks to your objections, below.



.
 
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nolidad

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Yes, the Mosaic Covenant was forcibly imposed upon "every single person of the twelve tribes of Israel", their faith and obedience was irrelevant, and they will all be saved.

It matters not that God slew the unfaithful and disobedient, because God makes covenants with the dead.

What perverse version of scripture are you reading from?

Return it to the round file from whence it came.

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say here.


You have yet to disclose how God identifies a Jew.

I almost forgot. He has some enigmatic esoteric criteria other than faith and obedience.

Judas Iscariot qualifies. Caiaphas the high priest qualifies. All responsible for Christ's death qualify, because "they will look on Him whom they pierced", and then be forcibly saved, according to dispensational fantasy.

Irrespective of their faith and obedience. Those characteristics are not found in the dispensational lexicon.

Daniel and Christ rebuke and repudiate your decapitated 70th week in the perfect, complete, and final sacrifice and accomplishments of the Lamb of God at Calvary.

The fallacies and fantasies of modernist dispensational futurism notwithstanding.

God identifies a Jew in the Bible. Faith and obedience makes you an heir of Abraham but not a Jew! It makes you a believer!

Yes Judas and Caiphas were Jews but unbelieving Jews! It is obvious you are editing in your mind what I have already written many times! Because if you paid a nanosecond of attention you would know I would never accuse Judas and Caiphas as being saved!

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jesus will physically return to earth to establish a kingdom? Just a simple yes or no is needed.
 
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nolidad

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No way. Do not try to pin the error of Universalism on me.

As long as you do not pin the fallacy of the two people of God on me!

Do you accept all the teachings of covenant theologians starting with Augustine?
Do you accept all the allegorical opinions of all who hold to allegorical interpretations since the time of Augustine?

I can play tit for tat and bring in lots of really bizaare apostate teachings from some of your side!

As for your quotes from Chafer and Walvoord. I would need to see the fuller context of these quotes to know if you are selectively cherry picking or putting them in their full context. It would not be the first time a covenant theologian pulled a quote out of its fuller context and vice versa.

I have no problem with Walvoords quote other than that the church is the bride of Christ and we co-reign with HIm for the 1,000 years.

I watched that less than impactful video before but for you I will watch it again and will answer His objections. Unless I missed the vote somewhere- He is not the arbiter of what teh Bible means or the ex-catherdra pontificate as to what is right or wrong with dispensationalism.

I can probably point out more problems within dispensationalism than this guy can! Most of it comes from a lack of full understanding of Gods purpose for Israel, the church and the millenial kingdom.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe Jesus is kIng of Kings and Lord of Lords for eternity?

But all the dispensationalists I now recognize that the distinction between Israel and the church is for the Millenial Kingdom (which most of your people deny) and that when eternity roles around- we don't know what or if there are any distinctions.

But one thing the bible is absolutely clear of- Only those who trust in teh death burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins can be part of the church which is the bride of Christ! That is not something OT saints can claim. Even John the Baptist recognized this.

Even Jesus told Peter that upon the rock of Jesus being th eMerssiah- He WILL (future) build His church- NOT has been builkding or will continue to build HIs church!

But the fact that Israel is promised a future kingdom , even Jesus confirmed in Acts 2 as is extensively written about in the OT.

The fact that Israel became a nation again in a day as prophesied (but rejected by covenant believers) is proof God is not done with Israel.

The fact that Israel will be invaded in the future by Russia, Iran, Libya and other nations as prophesied will happen.

Once again covenant theology establishes its belief system by rejecting the plain normal usage of words as allegorizes them away!

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

did God Lie here???? or below?? or have past allegorists tried ot make God a liar by spiritualizing this promise away?

Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
 
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jgr

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God identifies a Jew in the Bible. Faith and obedience makes you an heir of Abraham but not a Jew! It makes you a believer!

So if someone is a Jew, faith and obedience don't matter to God?

So if someone is a Jew, what does matter to God instead of faith and obedience?

1. DNA?
2. Religion?
3. Diet?
4. Something else?

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jesus will physically return to earth to establish a kingdom? Just a simple yes or no is needed.

Are you referring to the carnal political kingdom of pharisaic talmudism?

My simple answer is "no".

Do you believe that Jesus established the kingdom at His first coming? (Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 6:33; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 10:7; Matthew 12:28; Matthew 21:43; Mark 1:14; Mark 1:15; Luke 9:2; Luke 9:11; Luke 10:9; Luke 10:11; Luke 12:32; Luke 17:20; Luke 17:21; Luke 22:29; John 18:36; Acts 28:23; Acts 28:31; Romans 14:17; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 12:28)

Just a simple yes or no is needed.
 
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nolidad

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So if someone is a Jew, faith and obedience don't matter to God?

So if someone is a Jew, what does matter to God instead of faith and obedience?

1. DNA?
2. Religion?
3. Diet?
4. Something else?



Are you referring to the carnal political kingdom of pharisaic talmudism?

My simple answer is "no".

Do you believe that Jesus established the kingdom at His first coming? (Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 6:33; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 10:7; Matthew 12:28; Matthew 21:43; Mark 1:14; Mark 1:15; Luke 9:2; Luke 9:11; Luke 10:9; Luke 10:11; Luke 12:32; Luke 17:20; Luke 17:21; Luke 22:29; John 18:36; Acts 28:23; Acts 28:31; Romans 14:17; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 12:28)

Just a simple yes or no is needed.

Well I will let you search the Bible to find out who is a Jew! But if in the NT you think that Jews refer only to obedient and faithful descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob- then you have a problem. No Jew can be saved until th efulness of Gentiles come in then!

And you dodged my question?

Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to earth and establish a physical kingdom with Himself reigning as King? yes or no?

When you answerr mine I will answer yours. If yuo think of who I amasking it about (Jesus) then you wouldn't come up with such sophomoric dodges.
 
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jgr

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Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to earth and establish a physical kingdom with Himself reigning as King? yes or no?

No.

Your turn.

Do you believe that Jesus established the kingdom at His first coming? (Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 6:33; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 10:7; Matthew 12:28; Matthew 21:43; Mark 1:14; Mark 1:15; Luke 9:2; Luke 9:11; Luke 10:9; Luke 10:11; Luke 12:32; Luke 17:20; Luke 17:21; Luke 22:29; John 18:36; Acts 28:23; Acts 28:31; Romans 14:17; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 12:28)

Yes or no?
 
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mkgal1

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If the mountain to which John was taken is Mt. Zion which is located in Jerusalem, then this seems to indicate that Jerusalem and Mt. Zion may very well be made a part of the New Jerusalem that is to come since Jerusalem has been promised perpetual existence.
I absolutely agree that it looks to be that Mt. Zion is located in the New Jerusalem - but I, personally, believe the New Jerusalem is also part of the New Covenant (which, yes, is eternal).

Notice this:

Revelation 21:1 – 22:5 is the most detailed description of the New Jerusalem, and there we read that “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God” (Rev. 21:3). We also see that the Lamb, Jesus, is the light of God’s city (Revelation 21:22-24; 22:5). New Jerusalem is filled with the presence (“parousia”) of Jesus; New Jerusalem is His dwelling place.


Rev. 21:15-18 The new Jerusalem in John’s vision is cube-shaped, as was the holy of holies in Solomon’s temple (I Kings 6:20). The holy of holies was overlaid with pure gold, and the holy city in John’s vision is also entirely made of pure gold.


Rev. 21:22-23 Jesus is the temple and the light of this city. See Isaiah 60:19.


"Make an end of sins "- Ezekiel prophesies of the time when an end would be made of Israel's sins. A time when Israel would be "clean."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 (NKJV) "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

This prophecy is synchronous with the seventieth week of Daniel, and the new heaven and earth of Revelation 21. This is the promised New Covenant.

"Make reconciliation for iniquity"- or "to cover iniquity." The sins of Israel would be atoned for and covered or forgiven of God. It would be a time of redemption.

Romans 11:26-27 (NKJV) And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
When did Christ come out of Zion? Not at his first coming, but at his Parousia/coming. Daniel said that these things would happen at the destruction of Jerusalem, and Paul says they would happen when Christ comes out of Zion.

"Anoint the most Holy"- or the "holy of Holies." The "holy of Holies" was fifteen feet in length, width, and height, or a perfect cube. It symbolized the dwelling place of God. When the earthly tabernacle was destroyed in AD 70, the heavenly tabernacle, the new Jerusalem, was opened to believers.

Hebrews 9:8 (NKJV) the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is a perfect cube.

Revelation 21:16 (NKJV) The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

The perfect cube of the holy of holies now finds its fulfillment in the perfect cube of the city of God (Kingdom of God).
 
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I absolutely agree that it looks to be that Mt. Zion is located in the New Jerusalem - but I, personally, believe the New Jerusalem is also part of the New Covenant (which, yes, is eternal).

Notice this:

Revelation 21:1 – 22:5 is the most detailed description of the New Jerusalem, and there we read that “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God” (Rev. 21:3). We also see that the Lamb, Jesus, is the light of God’s city (Revelation 21:22-24; 22:5). New Jerusalem is filled with the presence (“parousia”) of Jesus; New Jerusalem is His dwelling place.


Rev. 21:15-18 The new Jerusalem in John’s vision is cube-shaped, as was the holy of holies in Solomon’s temple (I Kings 6:20). The holy of holies was overlaid with pure gold, and the holy city in John’s vision is also entirely made of pure gold.


Rev. 21:22-23 Jesus is the temple and the light of this city. See Isaiah 60:19.


"Make an end of sins "- Ezekiel prophesies of the time when an end would be made of Israel's sins. A time when Israel would be "clean."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 (NKJV) "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
This prophecy is synchronous with the seventieth week of Daniel, and the new heaven and earth of Revelation 21. This is the promised New Covenant.

"Make reconciliation for iniquity"- or "to cover iniquity." The sins of Israel would be atoned for and covered or forgiven of God. It would be a time of redemption.

Romans 11:26-27 (NKJV) And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
When did Christ come out of Zion? Not at his first coming, but at his Parousia/coming. Daniel said that these things would happen at the destruction of Jerusalem, and Paul says they would happen when Christ comes out of Zion.

"Anoint the most Holy"- or the "holy of Holies." The "holy of Holies" was fifteen feet in length, width, and height, or a perfect cube. It symbolized the dwelling place of God. When the earthly tabernacle was destroyed in AD 70, the heavenly tabernacle, the new Jerusalem, was opened to believers.

Hebrews 9:8 (NKJV) the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is a perfect cube.

Revelation 21:16 (NKJV) The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
The perfect cube of the holy of holies now finds its fulfillment in the perfect cube of the city of God (Kingdom of God).


That the New Jerusalem is a part of the New Covenant is not what is being disputed. I believe the consensus on that is almost unanimous, but what is being disputed is what the fate of the present day Jerusalem will be, but because Jerusalem is going to be the seat of God's throne on earth, there is no reason to think that God cannot change the corruptible into the incorruptible and make it a part of the new.

It should also be noted that Jerusalem, even during the thousand year reign, will be but the size of a pin head in comparison to the New Jerusalem to come.

The New Jerusalem and heavenly tabernacle was already made open by the death and resurrection of Christ who also applied His blood to the mercy seat in Heaven. To say that the earthly tabernacle had to be destroyed in order for that to take place would be to deny the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. If the earthly tabernacle had to be destroyed in order for the heavenly to be accessed by believers, then the New Covenant would have been of none affect until 70 A.D.
 
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mkgal1

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Jerusalem is going to be the seat of God's throne on earth
Christ Jesus sits on the Throne of David - forever - in heaven. That's His kingdom that cannot be shaken.
The New Jerusalem and heavenly tabernacle was already made open by the death and resurrection of Christ who also applied His blood to the mercy seat in Heaven. To say that the earthly tabernacle had to be destroyed in order for that to take place would be to deny the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. If the earthly tabernacle had to be destroyed in order for the heavenly to be accessed by believers, then the New Covenant would have been of none affect until 70 A.D.
I agree that the New Jerusalem/heavenly tabernacle was opened by Christ at His death and resurrection and that He applied His blood on the mercy seat in heaven. However.....following the pattern laid out in the OC - the High Priest had to then "come out" of the Holy of Holies in order to complete the Day of Atonement (and, I believe that was the point of the fullness of the New Covenant - that He "came in salvation" in 70 A.D. - as was anticipated). IOW....the process of salvation was not complete until the reality of the Day of Atonement was completed.
 
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ebedmelech

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Christ Jesus sits on the Throne of David - forever - in heaven. That's His kingdom that cannot be shaken.
Agreed.

I agree that the New Jerusalem/heavenly tabernacle was opened by Christ at His death and resurrection and that He applied His blood on the mercy seat in heaven. However.....following the pattern laid out in the OC - the High Priest had to then "come out" of the Holy of Holies in order to complete the Day of Atonement (and, I believe that was the point of the fullness of the New Covenant - that He "came in salvation" in 70 A.D. - as was anticipated). IOW....the process of salvation was not complete until the reality of the Day of Atonement was completed.
What makes you think Christ applied His blood on the mercy seat?
 
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Christ Jesus sits on the Throne of David - forever - in heaven. That's His kingdom that cannot be shaken.


When did David's throne get taken up to Heaven?


agree that the New Jerusalem/heavenly tabernacle was opened by Christ at His death and resurrection and that He applied His blood on the mercy seat in heaven. However.....following the pattern laid out in the OC - the High Priest had to then "come out" of the Holy of Holies in order to complete the Day of Atonement (and, I believe that was the point of the fullness of the New Covenant - that He "came in salvation" in 70 A.D. - as was anticipated). IOW....the process of salvation was not complete until the reality of the Day of Atonement was completed.


Christ did not have to wait to come out of the Holy of Holies until the destruction of the earthly Temple. If He had to wait until 70 A.D. which was when the Jewish Temple was destroyed, what good did His death and resurrection do for anyone before then?
 
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To answer your question-- NO! He did not establish teh prophesied kingdom, but He did establish the mystery form of teh kingdom.

But now to the bigger issue.

Because you deny Jesus is to return in the flesh you stand opposed to God HImself!

1Jo 4:2

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Come in both verses is:
Speech: Verb

Tense: Second Perfect

Voice: Active

Mood: Participle

Because come is in the participle mood- it is translated with either "ed" or "ing" endings. Because the tense is second perfect and active (meaning the subject is the doer who is Jesus) the verb come should have the "ing" ending thus showing Jesus is coming in the flesh!

This one verse says your spirit is not of god!

also Scripture shows you wrong!

Mt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Hebrews 9:28 ESV / 142 helpful votes
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Matthew 24:27 ESV / 102 helpful votes
For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Revelation 1:7 ESV / 83 helpful votes
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Luke 21:25-28 ESV / 99 helpful votes
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Revelation 22:12 ESV / 57 helpful votes
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Matthew 24:30-31 ESV / 44 helpful votes
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

and just a few verses on Israel having a future earthly kingdom:

Hos 3:4-54For the sons of Israel will remain for many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar and without ephod or household idols. 5Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

Zech 12:10 — “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” (cf Rev. 1:7)

Zech 8:23Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

Zech 9:14-1614Then the LORD will appear over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning; And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And will march in the storm winds of the south. 15The LORD of hosts will defend them. And they will devour and trample on the sling stones; And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine; And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin, Drenched like the corners of the altar. 16And the LORD their God will save them in that day As the flock of His people; For they are as the stones of a crown, Sparkling in His land.

Zech 14:1-91Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 6In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. 9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.


Ezekiel 38 King James Version (KJV)
38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

If you need any more, the bible is loaded with them.
 
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