Sacramental Grace makes no sense from what I see

Markie Boy

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?
 

Aussie Pete

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?
I do not understand the concept of grace through sacraments. I don't know how you can get that from the Bible. If grace comes through a sacrament then it is a work. Grace is not works. Ephesians 2:8 & 9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Good works are the result of receiving grace, not in order to gain grace.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?

A way to look at it is that they who are receiving properly get Grace thereby. They who are living sacraments also get Grace, thereby. To quote Saint Maria Skobtsova: "At the Last Judgment I will not be asked whether I satisfactorily practiced asceticism, nor how many prostrations and bows I have made before the holy table. I will be asked whether I fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and the prisoner in jail. That is all I will be asked."

The Church honors St. Maria. The Church also honors the Sacraments and those who attend them faithfully and properly. For Orthodoxy, the proper question is almost never "which must I do to the exclusion of others". Instead, like a Holy Banquet, the Church offers many foods to many faithful, and each can find what is most nourishing to his or her own needs.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?


Maybe you should consider that the operative word for sacrament is "mysterion" AKA mystery. That is what they are in the Greek Biblical Lexicon. You are treating the sacraments as the opposite of that! (Like something you can study scientifically through observation etc.).
 
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ArmyMatt

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?

if grace is the uncreated energy of God, if the sacraments you receive God made flesh, then how do you not receive grace in the sacraments?
 
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Not David

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I do not understand the concept of grace through sacraments. I don't know how you can get that from the Bible. If grace comes through a sacrament then it is a work. Grace is not works. Ephesians 2:8 & 9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Good works are the result of receiving grace, not in order to gain grace.
Heterodoxy!!!!!
CornyWeirdHen-size_restricted.gif
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I do not understand the concept of grace through sacraments. I don't know how you can get that from the Bible. If grace comes through a sacrament then it is a work. Grace is not works. Ephesians 2:8 & 9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Good works are the result of receiving grace, not in order to gain grace.

I almost brought the opposite of this. I've seen people that can have lots of knowledge of the Bible and doctrine but not necessarily seem that it actually has changed their character. They can basically be Christian version of the Pharisees who were out to get Jesus.

But this sort of objection is age old. It like something out of the Book of Ecclesiastes where Solomon laments that he has seen princes walking the streets as beggars, and slaves dressed in the finest of clothes and jewelry riding horses. And there are certain passages of the Bible like the parable of the sower (the four kind of soils) that sort of hint at why some of this might happen.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I almost brought the opposite of this. I've seen people that can have lots of knowledge of the Bible and doctrine but not necessarily seem that it actually has changed their character. They can basically be Christian version of the Pharisees who were after Jesus.

But this sort of objection is age old. It like something out of the Book of Ecclesiastes where Solomon laments that he has seen princes walking the streets as beggars, and slaves dressed in the finest of clothes and jewelry riding horses. And there are certain passages of the Bible like the parable of the sower (the four kind of soils) that sort of hint at why some of this might happen.
Doctrine does not save anyone. Grace does, through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection.
 
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nutroll

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I do not understand the concept of grace through sacraments. I don't know how you can get that from the Bible. If grace comes through a sacrament then it is a work. Grace is not works. Ephesians 2:8 & 9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Good works are the result of receiving grace, not in order to gain grace.
I can't fathom how someone can see sacraments as works. We simply submerge someone in water, and God adopts that person as an heir. We anoint them with chrism, and the Holy Spirit descends and dwells in that person. We bring bread and wine and God transforms them into His own body and blood. We anoint with oil and God provides healing of soul and body. A Bishop lays his hands on someone, and God makes that man a priest, sharing in the high priesthood of Christ. We lay crowns on the heads of a man and woman and God joins them into one flesh. These are miracles, not works. Who could boast about their role in this? Even as a priest, I know that my role in all of these is nothing without the grace of God filling the sacrament. If anything, sacraments are the very definition of good works that God prepared for us that we should walk in them. God makes them sacraments, we simply receive the gift with thanksgiving. We must actively embrace the grace given with faith and love, and in that sense it is not magic, but it is God who fills these actions with grace, not us, so it can never be a work.
 
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zippy2006

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So I understand the ideas - but in reality the idea of receiving grace thru sacraments makes no sense.

I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.

If the idea is someone can receive wrongly and it makes things worse I guess I can see that, but then those that don't participate hardly any sacramentally, yet are so charitable - how does any of this support that there is anything more available thru the sacraments that without?

Sorry - can you tell what I am working with today?

"If sacraments are effective, then why can't I see the effects?"

It's a good question.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Doctrine does not save anyone. Grace does, through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection.

grace, Who Christ is, the Cross, and the Resurrection are all doctrinal.
 
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nutroll

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Primarily we should see the effects in ourselves. We don't know the beginning point of others, we don't know how far they've come. We don't know what they've faced along the way. We barely know these things about ourselves. We are told not to judge others. When we evaluate the sacraments based on what we see in others we do just that.
 
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buzuxi02

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I seem to see so much un-Christian behavior from many that won't miss their weekly sacraments. And on the flip side I see such wonderful charity from some that almost never participate in sacraments.
Well I cant say I see that. But then again I'm greek and we usually only recieve sacraments a handful of times a year. Grace is always transmitted through rites and holy objects even things like handkerchiefs (Acts 19:12), relics (2 Kings 13:21), bread (Luke 24:30-31), we know about baptism how some spoke in tongues and prophecy etc.
But none of this is magic you have to struggle and cultivate the tools given to you ( 2 Tim 1:5-6)

Attending church by itself wont change you. Being a disciple requires discipline.
Of course much of what passes as charity and being non-judgmental nowadays is actually contrary to christian beliefs. To be disciplined presupposes a certain amount of akribeia (strictness) is being observed.
 
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Markie Boy

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"If sacraments are effective, then why can't I see the effects?"

It's a good question.

That is really the crux of it all for me.

And how do you get truly good people, that live quite Christian lives - like my old Baptist pastor - yet they don't receive sacraments? He is one of the greatest Christian examples I know - going so far and above for others - but no sacraments.

If sacraments are so powerful - this does not make sense.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That is really the crux of it all for me.

And how do you get truly good people, that live quite Christian lives - like my old Baptist pastor - yet they don't receive sacraments? He is one of the greatest Christian examples I know - going so far and above for others - but no sacraments.

If sacraments are so powerful - this does not make sense.

define "good" if you please
 
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nutroll

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"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35).
And yet we also see love for one another among non-Christians. And love does not mean lack of problems or disputes. Of it did, the early church described in Acts was not Christian. We must use discernment to know whether such love and grace abounds.

My point, which you brushed aside, is that living a Christian life does not mean the end of struggle, it means the taking up of struggle. We shouldn't assume based on our impression of a person which may not be the whole picture that they are not struggling, that they are not growing in their faith.
 
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zippy2006

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We must use discernment to know whether such love and grace abounds.

Discernment and judgment, yes.

My point, which you brushed aside, is that living a Christian life does not mean the end of struggle, it means the taking up of struggle. We shouldn't assume based on our impression of a person which may not be the whole picture that they are not struggling, that they are not growing in their faith.

Oh, I don't think charity is equivalent to a lack of struggle. Did you read the OP that way?
 
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Markie Boy

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define "good" if you please

Taking his own time to council married couples in need, working to bring kids from families of no faith to kids time at church, holding a class on parenting kids God's way on his own time, running a food pantry, evangelizing and sharing the Gospel whenever he can.

Do these qualify for good?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Taking his own time to council married couples in need, working to bring kids from families of no faith to kids time at church, holding a class on parenting kids God's way on his own time, running a food pantry, evangelizing and sharing the Gospel whenever he can.

Do these qualify for good?

It really seems you are asking the Eastern Orthodox here to go against one of their favorite slogans, "We know where the Holy Spirit is, we do not know where He is not".

It has been a consistent theme of the EO not to deny that other Christians outside their Church might have the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the other spirit etc. but rather to speak about things that help nurture the Faith from the standpoint of their own Tradition.
 
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