The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

klutedavid · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

What a difficult post to understand.

Could you provide a comprehensive definition of that word, 'free will'.

Bruce Leiter · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

Ephesians 2:1-10 says that we are stillborn spiritually in relationship with Satan's tyrannical rule, that God resurrects us by grace through faith and not by works, and that the result is good works which God has prepared for us, his handiwork. So the real choice is between Satan's domination and Jesus' loving leadership. Thus, free will is not free.

Also, in the Old Testament, God gave Israel their national law, but at the beginning of the Ten Commandments, Israel is called to gratitude for their deliverance from Egyptian slavery. Only a few of them demonstrated that gratitude, and the rest died in the desert. So, all OT and NT believers receive new life to live in obedience to the God who saves them by grace through faith that results in loving obedience.

Neogaia777 · Nov 12, 2019

Another important note about the OT, God knew man's will, and that he was going to insist on it, and God wanted to show the failure of such a course, and the consequences of man trying to follow after or insisting on his own will that was supposedly "free", etc, or works based Salvationism, and God wanted to show the failure of it first, before He would institute a covenant of Grace "not" based on man's will or man's insistence on his own will and having his own way, insisting that his will is/was free, when it never really was, for God knew already, etc, and knew way, way beforehand, but it was necessary to show man the failure of "even trying to follow after his own ways and insist on his own will that was supposedly "free", etc", when it was really not, no, not ever, etc...

God already knew though, He knew all, He even made man to be that way, cause that part of him would also be in the future would be greatly connected to what would cause him to surrender and submit in the end, etc; anyway, and the only "free" part about it, was God allowing man to fall and fail (in his own ways) etc, but God already knew, and knew it all fully, and/but or because God also had a "dual purpose" to it or for it, or many, many "multi purposes" to and for it. God needed to show man the failure of it first, for one, but it's not as if He didn't already know either, because He most certainly did know, his (man's) being that way, stubbornly insisting on his own will and ways and works to save him, etc, and God made many, many plans way, way ahead of time "around" that failure or what we be the ultimate failure of that or those ways that He already knew all about fully, etc, even made man that way for many, many very good reasons, etc...

So man's will was never ever really free ever, etc, and still is not, etc, the only difference now is the people who realize that, and fall upon God mercy to have themselves be one of the ones he has chosen, etc, that God, not man, will cause to come to a good end in the end, etc, for we still "do not know", etc, but God always has and always did and still does (know), etc, (always known, etc) (made him (man) that way, etc) (for many different, very, very good reasons and plans in the end, etc) anyway, that (that was just mentioned) (about submission and surrender, falling upon God's Mercy, Grace, and Truth, and Love, etc, God's plans around it/that, etc) is what man's insistence on his own will and ways was supposed to "lead him to" in the end, by the end, or when he comes to the end of himself, etc...

But we have people at different "ages and stages" I guess you could say, and we need to be understanding of that as well, people who have not come to the end of themselves yet, or they are lacking knowledge, etc, and we need to be understanding of that, etc...

God Bless!

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

So some people are "better than others", in that they have realized there is no such thing as free will.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

Why does a person believe?

Because they are drawn and respond positively, or is it because God ZAPS them first and CAUSES THEM TO BELIEVE?

If the latter, and one was not one of the souls that were ZAPPED, how could they be faulted for not believing?

Chris35 · Nov 12, 2019

Bruce Leiter said:
Ephesians 2:1-10 says that we are stillborn spiritually in relationship with Satan's tyrannical rule, that God resurrects us by grace through faith and not by works, and that the result is good works which God has prepared for us, his handiwork. So the real choice is between Satan's domination and Jesus' loving leadership. Thus, free will is not free.

Still learning but am starting to agree with this alot. The only real free will, is the choice of believing in Jesus or not.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires.

Hence if you dont allow yourself to come under Gods rule, through Jesus. Then all your work, no matter how good it seems, comes from the devil. There is no real good that they can do. They can do whatever they choose yes, which may appear to be good, however it always produces bad fruit. Its always in line with the devils work.

A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit.

Could be wrong though, i am still learning.

Neogaia777 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Why does a person believe?

Because they are drawn and respond positively

From what I see I do not see people who are walking in their own will, self-efforts, works, etc as "responding positively", quite the opposite a lot actually... Most of the time they are some of the most miserable people I know, and it comes out a lot, or eventually, etc, and it's not ever "positive", or pretty, ever, etc...

Tra Phull said:
or is it because God ZAPS them first and CAUSES THEM TO BELIEVE?

If the latter, and one was not one of the souls that were ZAPPED, how could they be faulted for not believing?

They are not really faulted for not believing, if they were not ever made to believe, they just were never really "really real" ever, or never really truly alive in the first place ever, or not ever truly self-aware ever, and were never designed to be ever, if that is their case, etc, and are only meant only what they are meant for ever, and are only created for the kind of existence they were created for ever, and never were meant to go beyond or become anything more or other than that or "this" ever, etc, they just get "more of this" forever, etc...

I don't really understand what you mean by "zapped" either...? :scratch:

God Bless!

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

What I mean by ZAPPED is DRAWN in a way that is irresistible - by divine fiat, they are made to believe.

Neogaia777 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
What I mean by ZAPPED is DRAWN in a way that is irresistible - by divine fiat, they are made to believe.

If you are truly drawn, or being drawn by God, it is irresistible, as in "inevitable", unavoidable and unable to be changed, and or resisted even if you tried, etc, cause it is God's will working in you, etc...

You have a desire for God that can't be changed ever...

But it is not your (own) desire drawing you, but God's will...

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

I disagree with an irresistible grace.

Will I be one of the ones who just "never were" - I don't understand your comments about the ones who are "not faulted" - do you think they are just ANNIHILATED?

Neogaia777 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I disagree with an irresistible grace.

Will I be one of the ones who just "never were" - I don't understand your comments about the ones who are "not faulted" - do you think they are just ANNIHILATED?

They are "recycled" for only these types of existences.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

Recycled. I see.

His student · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I disagree with an irresistible grace.

So do I.

Paul "kicked against the goads for some time before being convinced that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

I, myself, resisted the drawing of the Holy Spirit for many years before finally coming to the Son and believing on Him.

Having said that - Jesus did say that all those who the Father gives to Him and who are drawn to Him by the Father will indeed eventually come to Him.

In addition the golden thread of salvation in Romans 8 says that all those who are called by God are justified.

Therefore it is logical to believe that grace is irresistible in the long run even though it is resistible in the short run.

Thir7ySev3n · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

The irony of this post is it only matters if we have free will. If we have free will, our beliefs can significantly impact our behavior (as you described), and thus deception is dangerous. If we do not have free will, then our beliefs and actions are determined by God and thus deception is as dangerous as an ember swallowed by the sea and can be hand-waved without caution.

The Bible will only ever make sense if we are responsible (able to respond) of our actions, genuinely choosing between what has been set before us, whether life or death, blessing or cursing.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

I am glad we agree on something, His student.

"If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself"

The way to Universalism is there, but I can't buy into it.

Neither can I buy into Annihilation.

SkyWriting · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

God already remembers the choices you are going to make.
Glad to help! - Sky

th1bill · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

You went to a lot of misdirected effort to ruin my credibility but a clear translation in the common English is found in the NASB.
Romans 4:4 (NASB)
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:4 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

I have included the verse, as it correctly reads because the two versions agree. I would that you were careful with adding words to the scriptures and we are warned, as my feeble old mind recalls from the days I taught the Bible, we are warned four times never to add nor subtract even a title from the scripture that are the accurate word of Yashuah ha'Mashiah, known to many as Jesus as is clearly seen in John 1:1-5, there is nothing He did not create in the stead of His Father, YHWH. The last and most commonly debated by the understudied is found in the last verse of Revelation 22. The first one is
Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add
Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

YHWH had put Believers, Freewill or not on a short leash in this arena. It is my prayer that you heed the Word of our Elohim and hang a good bit closer to what He has recorded for us to learn.

joshua 1 9 · Nov 12, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results.

If you read this passage in context the message is very plain and very clear. We either walk in the darkness of the devil or we walk in the Light of God. We know who walks in the Light of God because they abide in the Truth. True Believers abide in the Truth because they walk in the Light. We know who abides in the Truth because of the Love that is in them.

The world can know True Believers by the Love they have. "A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.” (John13:34,35)

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

joshua 1 9 · Nov 12, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
What do you and others believe He wrote down?

He wrote the Hebrew letters. Each letter is a symbol. I believe He wrote all 22 of the Hebrew letters. All wisdom, all knowledge, all of Creation is expressed in those 22 letters. The Word of God as well as the Law of God is expressed in those Letters. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." (Matthew 5:18) Jots and Tittles make up the letters. A letter can have up to 5 strokes of the pen. The smallest letter is little more then the dot that appears when the pen touches the paper. For some letters the pen has to touch the paper 5 times. Just like our hand has five fingers or five digits. Each letter is a symbol and each symbol has infinite meaning from the beginning to the end.

renniks · Nov 12, 2019

His student said:
First - a bit of a preface to my remarks concerning what you have written in the OP.

Of the two strains of believers associated with these concepts (Calvinists and non or anti Calvinists) - both believe in free will. That is assuming you mean the term as most mean it. I.e. all people can make choices as they want to and without God or anyone else forcing them to.

(Obviously no created being can have total freedom to do as they like. They can't fly for instance even if they truly want to do so. Also - to do total justice to the subject we'd have to revisit the idea of the "bondage of the will" in detail. I doubt that you have in mind that we do that here.)

Of the before mentioned strains of believers mentioned above - I self identify directly as neither.

Having said that - I generally see things more from the so called Calvinistic perspective than the so called Arminian perspective.

I have never taken that verse to mean anything other than how the "Free Will" people see it.

There are other verses that show me that there must be some kind of grace that draws me to the Lord in order for me to believe. But not this one.

Also I know of no Calvinist or anyone of that general point of view who would say that people believe "because they are saved". All, even the most hard core 5-pointers, say that one must believe "to be saved".

In fact (we've talked about this before) I've been around Calvinists for some 35 years or so now (I was a teaching elder in the Presbyterian church for many years) and you're the absolute first person who says that one must be saved in order to believe and or that one is saved before they believe.

Dave is perhaps that rare one in a million honest calvinist that lays out the logical consequences of the doctrine as it really is. I happen to think he's way off, but at least he doesn't do the normal song and dance routine.

The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Well-Known Member

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

Old Soul

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Active Member

Old Soul

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Old Soul

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Old Soul

Ecumenical Loose Canon

Well-Known Member

Psalm 139

Ecumenical Loose Canon

The Librarian

A Believer/Follower

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads