Tower of Babel and the power of speaking in tongues

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I know everything goes with this gift and it is futile to convince those who believe tongues is anything and everything that comes out of one's mouth. Be careful not to put so much energy into something that you do not understand for it is "unfruitful". Most of all, be honest with yourself. Keep yourself in check by asking yourself, is this really the Holy Spirit at work? Test all things.
Be blessed.


I have spent over 50 years testing whether the tongues I pray is genuine, and every time the Lord has confirmed that what I have is true and correct. Every time I check in with Him about it, He leads me right back to 1 Corinthians 14 and tells me that He inspired that chapter and that I have no fear basing my faith in the gift on the foundation of what He said in that chapter. He tells me that He did not include that Chapter in His inspired Word for nothing. and that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is His personal assurance that when I pray in tongues I am praying to Him and He understands every word I speak to Him.

When I ask Him whether I received something false when I asked Him for the gift, He tells me, "If a child asks his father for bread, would he give him a stone? If he asks for fish would he give him a snake. Then, if an earthly father gives good gifts to his children, how much more does your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? Therefore, I gave you exactly what you asked for, because My promises in My Word are yes and amen and you can fully trust that what you have is absolutely genuine, because I don't lie."

I don't know about others who pray in tongues, but what I do is soundly based in God's written Scriptures which are true and correct.

Make sure that when you start sowing seeds of doubt into good and godly people who are trusting God and His Word in the way they pray in tongues, you don't end up becoming, as Stephen said, stiff necked in heart and ears, resisting the Lord.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Make sure that when you start sowing seeds of doubt into good and godly people who are trusting God and His Word in the way they pray in tongues, you don't end up becoming, as Stephen said, stiff necked in heart and ears, resisting the Lord.
You were dong really well until this statement. I am sure you are sure of your gift however there are many who have tested honestly and came to realize that it was a flesh driven exercise through peer pressure and denominational error. So before you accuse me of being stiff necked, please understand there are other gifts at work as well. Mine is discernment.
Be blessed.

One who discerns
 
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I know everything goes with this gift and it is futile to convince those who believe tongues is anything and everything that comes out of one's mouth. Be careful not to put so much energy into something that you do not understand for it is "unfruitful". Most of all, be honest with yourself. Keep yourself in check by asking yourself, is this really the Holy Spirit at work? Test all things.
Be blessed.

I appreciate the above post. There are a couple of things in it that need to be considered.

First on, "is it futile to convince those who believe tongues is anything and everything that comes out of one's mouth."

Of course tongues is not everything that comes out of our mouth. Tongues is a gift of the Spirit and a result of turning your voice over to the Spirit. You can tell when that is happening!!!! It is pretty much impossible to fake it. If I try to imitate speaking in tongue, like trying to give an example to someone when you are not actually speaking in tongues, it just doesn't work well and you are fully aware that you are faking it for a demonstration and not actually speaking in tongue (letting the Spirit lead you) I know that not everything that comes out of my mouth is tongues!!

Also, Paul wrote on this subject - writing things like desire the gifts, don't not forbid speaking in tongues, that He thanks God for speaking in tongues more that others - Paul did not think it futile to get people to speak in tongues!!!! So if Paul was writing on behalf of God (eg the Scriptures) who are we listening to if part of our message is not desire the gifts?

Which brings me to perhaps the most important part or thought - Do we keep ourselves in check by asking ourselves or by asking our Lord??? There is something written about no leaning on our own understanding and more about seeking our Lord Jesus Christ!!

So let's do be honest with ourselves!!!

Are we seeking the Lord or ourselves!
Are we desiring the very gifts He wants us to have, or are we leaning on our own understanding?
And isn't this exactly why He design this gift of tongues, so that we might lean on Him and trust Him even with our voice?

The Spirit of God is not the only spirit around, but when the Spirit of God was poured out on the devote believers this gift of tongues appeared!! The Spirit instantly lead them into it. So if we are being honest with ourselves, and considering that all things are possible with God, how is it that we are not all have the gift of tongues??? Isn't it because we do not all wish to be lead by the Spirit, and especially when it comes to trusting Him with our voice??

Look - it is not about speaking in tongues, but it is about being lead by the Spirit of God!! Are we fully being lead by the Spirit of God or are we holding back on Him? Are we devote believers?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I appreciate the above post. There are a couple of things in it that need to be considered.

First on, "is it futile to convince those who believe tongues is anything and everything that comes out of one's mouth."

Of course tongues is not everything that comes out of our mouth. Tongues is a gift of the Spirit and a result of turning your voice over to the Spirit. You can tell when that is happening!!!! It is pretty much impossible to fake it. If I try to imitate speaking in tongue, like trying to give an example to someone when you are not actually speaking in tongues, it just doesn't work well and you are fully aware that you are faking it for a demonstration and not actually speaking in tongue (letting the Spirit lead you) I know that not everything that comes out of my mouth is tongues!!

Also, Paul wrote on this subject - writing things like desire the gifts, don't not forbid speaking in tongues, that He thanks God for speaking in tongues more that others - Paul did not think it futile to get people to speak in tongues!!!! So if Paul was writing on behalf of God (eg the Scriptures) who are we listening to if part of our message is not desire the gifts?

Which brings me to perhaps the most important part or thought - Do we keep ourselves in check by asking ourselves or by asking our Lord??? There is something written about no leaning on our own understanding and more about seeking our Lord Jesus Christ!!

So let's do be honest with ourselves!!!

Are we seeking the Lord or ourselves!
Are we desiring the very gifts He wants us to have, or are we leaning on our own understanding?
And isn't this exactly why He design this gift of tongues, so that we might lean on Him and trust Him even with our voice?

The Spirit of God is not the only spirit around, but when the Spirit of God was poured out on the devote believers this gift of tongues appeared!! The Spirit instantly lead them into it. So if we are being honest with ourselves, and considering that all things are possible with God, how is it that we are not all have the gift of tongues??? Isn't it because we do not all wish to be lead by the Spirit, and especially when it comes to trusting Him with our voice??

Look - it is not about speaking in tongues, but it is about being lead by the Spirit of God!! Are we fully being lead by the Spirit of God or are we holding back on Him? Are we devote believers?
I posted a video along with my comment. Maybe watch it if you have a moment. He goes in great deal on how to test the spirit. It is all within scripture.
Be blessed.
 
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You were dong really well until this statement. I am sure you are sure of your gift however there are many who have tested honestly and came to realize that it was a flesh driven exercise through peer pressure and denominational error. So before you accuse me of being stiff necked, please understand there are other gifts at work as well. Mine is discernment.
Be blessed.

One who discerns
You are in protected forum where those who who believe that tongues, prophecy, and other Spiritual gifts are genuine and they are for today's church.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You are in protected forum where those who who believe that tongues, prophecy, and other Spiritual gifts are genuine and they are for today's church.
Understood! I do believe in all the Spiritual Gifts as I spoke in tongues upon conversion. We just need to be more discerning.
Be blessed.
 
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Understood! I do believe in all the Spiritual Gifts as I spoke in tongues upon conversion. We just need to be more discerning.
Be blessed.
I apologise for being a bit terse in my last sentence. I added two plus two equals five, thinking that you may have been like some who say that all tongues are false.

Yes, because the Charismatic movement has changed significantly over the last 40 years, and there has been an invasion of the occult and pagan mind control we have to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. The problem with the Charismatic movement is the general belief that everything supernatural has to be of the Holy Spirit, when such is definitely not the case.

I took my heart into my hands and read a couple of books examining the Charismatic movement in terms of the invasion of the occult and pagan manifestations, and it turned my Pentecostal theology on its head! It opened my eyes to see so much that is missing from the New Testament. It is quite true that in many cases the public speaking in tongues can very well be in the flesh because the speakers are unlearned about the nature of it and how it should be practiced, according to 1 Corinthians 14.

So, I am being just as outspoken and opinionated in my opposition to pagan and occult practices within the Charismatic movement as to those who say that all Charismatics are of the flesh or the devil.

Blessings to you too! :)
 
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There are two side (good and evil) in the spirit realm and we battle with the dark forces of this world - and Paul wrote: Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good - still, we are not fearing the devil but are fearing God and seeking first the Kingdom of God, which of course our Lord and he King of kings, Jesus Christ!!!

Too often, we are like the man with the prophet who was scared because he was looking at the evil army around him, so that the prophet prayed that his eyes would be open so that he could see that there are more with us - as in the army of God and the chariots of fire.

There are more with us, and we have a promise that we would be baptized with the Spirit and fire! Tongues came like tongues of fire, and concerning the angels that serve the Lord it is written Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE". Have we not read that if we ask for something good are we going to get something bad?

We have something good, a baptism with the Spirit and fire. We are told to desire it. We are told to fear God, not the devil. Sure, we need wisdom, but if someone has decided to not desire the gifts of the Spirit they are not doing as commanded in the Bible, so who are they now listening to and what wisdom did they get?

If we are lead by the Spirit, are not now all things possible for us. Certainly we should hear the Lord via His Holy Spirit speaking to our spirit, but doesn't that sometimes manifest in tongues? Is it not written, concerning the gifts "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit" (1 Cor 12:4) So we know that the Spirit of God gives gifts. Are we now going to miss out on what the Spirit has for us because we fear that perhaps if seek and ask God the devil will answer? Or are we going to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and ask with expectation the gifts of the Spirit that we are supposed to desire?

1 Cor 14:1 Purse love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts...

So what happens if we tell ourselves, 'Oh, I might get a demon when I desire spiritual gifts'? Are we then putting our faith in God, or are we putting our fear in the devil? We are supposed to fear God! We are supposed to desire the gift, as commanded... and if we desire them we seek them, and trusting the Lord, right?

Didn't Jesus bring up something like - 'If we ask for bread are we going to get a stone, and if we ask for an egg are we going to get a scorpion? Yet what do we see? Is it something like 'Oh, if I ask God for tongues the devil is going to control my voice when I then pray in tongues.' Who told us that, if it doesn't match up with what the Lord said?
 
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Here is the truth about tongues:

It is a real language, not gibberish.
It is used for prayer to God and not to anyone else.
It is what Paul and Jude describes as praying "in the Spirit".
It does not "burst" out of a person.
The person uses his own mouth and voice to speak the unlearned language.

There are times when the Holy Spirit will cause a person to speak in tongues in a language understood by someone else in the meeting. This is not random, but for a particular God-appointed purpose to minister to the listener in a specific way.

It is not "ecstatic". It is using cold-blooded faith.
One does not have to sense or feel anything while praying in tongues, in the same way that we don't have to have any particular emotion while praying in our natural learned language.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it describe tongues as "ecstatic". This is a human theologian's own invented description.
God was aware that having a common language enabled man to achieve great things. That is why He confused the languages to stop them doing things which were exalting themselves instead of giving glory to Him.

Zephaniah 3:9 says:"For then will I return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord." This was a prophecy about tongues.
Compare this with "they were all with one accord" on the Day of Pentecost, when they received tongues for the first time.

There is the gift of tongues accompanied by interpretation of tongues for public meetings.
Interpretation of tongues is not direct translation but a supernatural interpretation given through faith.

There is the grace of tongues for a person's own prayer time.
Because the person is praying in the Spirit, he is always praying in the will of God, because he is speaking "mysteries in the Spirit" to God (1 Corinthians 14:2).

There are no Scriptural references to say that tongues was an Apostolic gift, because all the 120, including Mary the mother of Jesus, and other women present, spoke in tongues, and they were not Apostles.
There are no Scriptural references to clearly state that tongues was limited to the early church, so therefore 1 Corinthians 14 is still the standard for Christians today.
Paul never used the word "temporary" when referring to tongues, prophecy, or any other gift of the Spirit.

The teaching that God withdrew the "Apostolic gifts" and retained the service gifts like helps and teaching, is an invention of man not supported anywhere in Scripture.
Those who say they abide by Sola Scriptura, and yet ignore 1 Corinthians 14, are being double-minded and hypocritical. They say that we must abide by the Scriptures, and yet refuse to abide by the clear teaching concerning tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. In fact, they are deleting from the Word of God those parts that don't suit their man-invented theology.

A person who has the Holy Spirit has His supernatural gifts as well for the building up of the body of Christ.
I believe that those who refuse the Holy Spirit's supernatural "tools of trade" and say they are filled with the Holy Spirit, are being controlled by another spirit, because being filled with the Holy Spirit is being controlled and led by the Spirit, and so those who refuse to enter into the gifts of the Spirit are not being led or controlled by the Holy Spirit, but a religious spirit.

Being controlled by the Spirit is not shown by kundalini jerking, shaking, falling down, uncontrolled tongues (as opposed to normal tongues), or any other manifestation or behaviour that is not totally self-controlled. These uncontrolled manifestations show that the person is being controlled by another spirit and needs to repent.

Those who teach that those who speak in tongues is of the devil are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing to the devil what is clearly set out in Scripture as a genuine way of praying in the Spirit.
 
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Here is the truth about tongues:

It is a real language, not gibberish.
It is used for prayer to God and not to anyone else.
It is what Paul and Jude describes as praying "in the Spirit".
It does not "burst" out of a person.
The person uses his own mouth and voice to speak the unlearned language.

There are times when the Holy Spirit will cause a person to speak in tongues in a language understood by someone else in the meeting. This is not random, but for a particular God-appointed purpose to minister to the listener in a specific way.

It is not "ecstatic". It is using cold-blooded faith.
One does not have to sense or feel anything while praying in tongues, in the same way that we don't have to have any particular emotion while praying in our natural learned language.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it describe tongues as "ecstatic". This is a human theologian's own invented description.
God was aware that having a common language enabled man to achieve great things. That is why He confused the languages to stop them doing things which were exalting themselves instead of giving glory to Him.

Zephaniah 3:9 says:"For then will I return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord." This was a prophecy about tongues.
Compare this with "they were all with one accord" on the Day of Pentecost, when they received tongues for the first time.

There is the gift of tongues accompanied by interpretation of tongues for public meetings.
Interpretation of tongues is not direct translation but a supernatural interpretation given through faith.

There is the grace of tongues for a person's own prayer time.
Because the person is praying in the Spirit, he is always praying in the will of God, because he is speaking "mysteries in the Spirit" to God (1 Corinthians 14:2).

There are no Scriptural references to say that tongues was an Apostolic gift, because all the 120, including Mary the mother of Jesus, and other women present, spoke in tongues, and they were not Apostles.
There are no Scriptural references to clearly state that tongues was limited to the early church, so therefore 1 Corinthians 14 is still the standard for Christians today.
Paul never used the word "temporary" when referring to tongues, prophecy, or any other gift of the Spirit.

The teaching that God withdrew the "Apostolic gifts" and retained the service gifts like helps and teaching, is an invention of man not supported anywhere in Scripture.
Those who say they abide by Sola Scriptura, and yet ignore 1 Corinthians 14, are being double-minded and hypocritical. They say that we must abide by the Scriptures, and yet refuse to abide by the clear teaching concerning tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. In fact, they are deleting from the Word of God those parts that don't suit their man-invented theology.

A person who has the Holy Spirit has His supernatural gifts as well for the building up of the body of Christ.
I believe that those who refuse the Holy Spirit's supernatural "tools of trade" and say they are filled with the Holy Spirit, are being controlled by another spirit, because being filled with the Holy Spirit is being controlled and led by the Spirit, and so those who refuse to enter into the gifts of the Spirit are not being led or controlled by the Holy Spirit, but a religious spirit.

Being controlled by the Spirit is not shown by kundalini jerking, shaking, falling down, uncontrolled tongues (as opposed to normal tongues), or any other manifestation or behaviour that is not totally self-controlled. These uncontrolled manifestations show that the person is being controlled by another spirit and needs to repent.

Those who teach that those who speak in tongues is of the devil are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing to the devil what is clearly set out in Scripture as a genuine way of praying in the Spirit.

The above is interesting, but does it match up with what we see and even what we read? No.

In Acts, when the Spirit fell like tongues of fire there were a lot of people around at that time. There were "devote" believers, but there were others also. They all had come to Jerusalem. The Spirit fell on the devote believers and they started speaking in tongues! And all the devote believers heard what was being said in their own language. Yet for all to hear in their own language it could not be that the others were speaking in their language because they all heard in their own language and they all had different languages!!

For example. If there were people from Spain, Germany, England, and Africa, and the person from Spain started speaking in German, those from England and Africa would still not be hearing the person from Spain speaking in German in "their own language"!!! For the Bible to be correct about them all hearing in "Their own language", the Spirit was also translating what was being said!!

Yet not all were hearing in their own language!! Only the devote believers were hearing in their own language. The passed about all hearing in their own language was referencing the "devote". If I say that there were people with red sweaters and they all like red, that does not mean there were not also people in blue sweaters who did not like red.

So all the devote believers were hearing in their own language, but we find out that there were others there also. There were those who were not devote believers and they were thinking the devote believers were drunk!!!

Now if someone from Spain is speaking to someone from Germany in German, I would not think they were drunk!! So there was a lot more going on in the Spirit than just that!! What does a drunk person look like? Perhaps "jerking, shaking, and falling down?" Yeah, if I also saw that I would think them drunk, but not just because they were talking to each other in a language I didn't know. I would expect that if there were people from many nations around. Also, if it was very orderly and not just people busting out, I would not think them drunk. Still the unbelievers, scoffed at the event thinking the believers to be drunk! To the scoffers the devote seems drunk because they were not orderly, were acting drunk like in jerking, shaking, and falling down!

So Peter stood up and explained. It is right that an explanation should be given. By coincidence, I am a Peters, quite literally and related to Simon Peter. So let me show you the explanation.

Acts 1:14-17 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: Men of Judea (and remember Christians are grafted in to the Jewish root. You are men of Judea) and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT IS WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.... (19) AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW...

So it is that we have what some might call Sign Gifts. Note: that Joel did not write about tongues, though Peter's explanation referenced Joel.!

Now if someone gave you a gift, say a PlayStation game, you might have to figure out how it is used. Just getting something doesn't mean you know how it should be used! So it is that Paul comes along later and explains to the church at Corinth about using the gift of tongue properly. At Corinth, they were busting out in tongue and not being orderly. We were not there, but it seems by what Paul wrote that they were probably chasing away the non-believers because they were not orderly, but they did have the real gift of tongues!!

Now, almost 20 years ago the Lord came into my life and I started hearing His voice, getting dreams and visions, and picking up prophecy. It was like Joel explained. But I was concerned that perhaps it was from the devil. It didn't really make sense because the first words I heard were 'Read Your Bible'. Is the devil telling people that?

Perhaps, so I prayed and asked the Lord for the gift of tongues! I didn't ask the devil for it. I certainly did not speak in tongues at that time. In fact I had never even hear anyone speak in tongues and felt that nobody I knew did speak in tongues. But it was in the Bible so I asked and that because I was concerned that what was going on was not of God.

I asked Him three times, two nights apart, and on the third in the middle of the night I got woken up. I sat up in bed and then suddenly it felt like I swallowed a bug. Yet the it was hot going down my throat and when it came to my heart it exploded in fire. That is how I got the gift. I still had learning to do about it. I didn't even know anyone that spoke in tongues, or so I thought. I found out different later.

To be continued
 
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The above is interesting, but does it match up with what we see and even what we read? No.

In Acts, when the Spirit fell like tongues of fire there were a lot of people around at that time. There were "devote" believers, but there were others also. They all had come to Jerusalem. The Spirit fell on the devote believers and they started speaking in tongues! And all the devote believers heard what was being said in their own language. Yet for all to hear in their own language it could not be that the others were speaking in their language because they all heard in their own language and they all had different languages!!

For example. If there were people from Spain, Germany, England, and Africa, and the person from Spain started speaking in German, those from England and Africa would still not be hearing the person from Spain speaking in German in "their own language"!!! For the Bible to be correct about them all hearing in "Their own language", the Spirit was also translating what was being said!!

Yet not all were hearing in their own language!! Only the devote believers were hearing in their own language. The passed about all hearing in their own language was referencing the "devote". If I say that there were people with red sweaters and they all like red, that does not mean there were not also people in blue sweaters who did not like red.

So all the devote believers were hearing in their own language, but we find out that there were others there also. There were those who were not devote believers and they were thinking the devote believers were drunk!!!

Now if someone from Spain is speaking to someone from Germany in German, I would not think they were drunk!! So there was a lot more going on in the Spirit than just that!! What does a drunk person look like? Perhaps "jerking, shaking, and falling down?" Yeah, if I also saw that I would think them drunk, but not just because they were talking to each other in a language I didn't know. I would expect that if there were people from many nations around. Also, if it was very orderly and not just people busting out, I would not think them drunk. Still the unbelievers, scoffed at the event thinking the believers to be drunk! To the scoffers the devote seems drunk because they were not orderly, were acting drunk like in jerking, shaking, and falling down!

So Peter stood up and explained. It is right that an explanation should be given. By coincidence, I am a Peters, quite literally and related to Simon Peter. So let me show you the explanation.

Acts 1:14-17 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: Men of Judea (and remember Christians are grafted in to the Jewish root. You are men of Judea) and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT IS WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.... (19) AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW...

So it is that we have what some might call Sign Gifts. Note: that Joel did not write about tongues, though Peter's explanation referenced Joel.!

Now if someone gave you a gift, say a PlayStation game, you might have to figure out how it is used. Just getting something doesn't mean you know how it should be used! So it is that Paul comes along later and explains to the church at Corinth about using the gift of tongue properly. At Corinth, they were busting out in tongue and not being orderly. We were not there, but it seems by what Paul wrote that they were probably chasing away the non-believers because they were not orderly, but they did have the real gift of tongues!!

Now, almost 20 years ago the Lord came into my life and I started hearing His voice, getting dreams and visions, and picking up prophecy. It was like Joel explained. But I was concerned that perhaps it was from the devil. It didn't really make sense because the first words I heard were 'Read Your Bible'. Is the devil telling people that?

Perhaps, so I prayed and asked the Lord for the gift of tongues! I didn't ask the devil for it. I certainly did not speak in tongues at that time. In fact I had never even hear anyone speak in tongues and felt that nobody I knew did speak in tongues. But it was in the Bible so I asked and that because I was concerned that what was going on was not of God.

I asked Him three times, two nights apart, and on the third in the middle of the night I got woken up. I sat up in bed and then suddenly it felt like I swallowed a bug. Yet the it was hot going down my throat and when it came to my heart it exploded in fire. That is how I got the gift. I still had learning to do about it. I didn't even know anyone that spoke in tongues, or so I thought. I found out different later.

To be continued
What I have done is to take my comments from Scripture. Tongues is not a sensory or ecstatic experience. It is speaking an unlearned language by faith to God. Nothing more, nothing less.

To add anything more to tongues, especially sensory or ecstatic experiences is adding to God's Word and defining the gift and use use in ways the Scripture never says.

When I asked God for the gift of tongues, I knew exactly what I was doing and what I was asking for. I was alone, right away from any hyped up emotional environment, and I didn't feel a thing when I received the gift. I just started speaking in a language I had never learned. God gave me exactly what I asked for: the ability to pray in the Spirit according to the Scripture.

Therefore, the gift of tongues is not according to the Charismatic, or Pentecostalism, or any emotional or sensory experiences, but according to the Scripture. If it is not according to the Scripture then the "tongues" are not genuine.

I don't care two figs about the way it is used in public services, or the experience of others. I think that in many cases, Pentecostals and Charismatics have brought the gift into disrepute in the way they have gone about it. They have added all sorts of fleshly, wacko manifestations to it that shows that what they have is not according to the Scripture at all.

You need to go back and read the Scriptures carefully. Luke says that the whole crowd of Jewish people, pilgrims, residents, God-fearers, all heard their own regional languages being spoken. It wasn't the devoted believers at all! To say that is to say something Luke never said at all. He said they all heard their own languages, full stop.

So, unless the person is knowingly, as an act of his will, apart of any sensory feeling or emotion, asks God for the gift of tongues, and then steps out in faith, believing that the Lord will give him exactly what he asks for, and deliberately speaks in an unlearned language to God, then anything else is of the flesh or even the devil!

If people are expecting some sort of goosebumps up the spine, or something bursting up from within them, or any other sensory experience, then the devil is always present to give them one. This is why there are many manifestations happening in Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings that are not found in the New Testament, and therefore are not according to the Scripture, so they cannot be of the Holy Spirit at all.

So the behaviour in these services brings the work of the Holy Spirit into disrepute and is turning godly people away from what could be a great blessing from God in their lives. This is because good people are spooked by the wacky manifestations and think that if they are baptised with the Spirit and speak in tongues they have to experience those wacky manifestations. This is a total lie from the pit, and it is the devil's way of blocking people from receiving the gift and limiting them to praying just from their own understanding and not in the Spirit.

So you must examine yourself in the light of Scripture, and determine if you received the real gift of tongues according to the Scripture. When the gift is received according to the Scripture, it is asked for from God, and received by cold blooded, deliberate faith, and without any sensory experience or emotion, starts speaking an unlearned language to God. The person receiving the gift according to the Scripture does not receive an experience because tongues is not an experience, but the ability to speak in a spiritual language, in the Holy Spirit to God alongside his prayers from his understanding.

We don't get all wacky in our prayer times when we pray with our understanding, so when we pray in tongues, we don't get wacky either. Therefore, I conclude that most of the wacky way people speak in tongues in public meetings is more of the flesh than of the Spirit because it is not according to the Scripture. Only those acts of faith according to the Scripture are of the Holy Spirit. He does not work outside of what has already been written in Scripture. Therefore many of these people are being controlled by another spirit and not the Holy Spirit.
 
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What I have done is to take my comments from Scripture.

No - you leaned on your understanding of the Scripture, but what you wrote is not according to the Scriptures.

For example - you concluded that when a person speaks in tongues it is going to be a language of some people hear on earth, which is just an assumption!!

There are reasons people make that assumption, but the reasons are because they don't understand and misinterpret.

Perhaps the most common miss interpretation, which I have explained carefully but either you didn't read or just can't except, is that people often read in Acts where is says that they all heard in their own language and they conclude that the other people were speaking in their own language. It doesn't says that they all spoke in the others peoples language, but that they all heard in their own language!! They spoke in tongue as lead by the Spirit, and we read in other places that tongues is the language of angels, not people. And I pointed out that if they were all speaking in another human language, like if a person from Spain spoke in German, they still could not have all heard in their own language, only the German person in that case could have heard in his language! You missed that. You made and assumption that did not match up with the Scriptures.

Now if you were taught of the Lord, this would start becoming clear. The Lord can have a person speak in another human language, because all things are possible, but that is not how tongues usually works! Speaking in tongue with usually sound more like gibberish, but the understanding comes with interpretation, which is most often gotten from the small voice of the Lord. Yet at times I hear in my spirit the interpretation in my own language (American) right as someone speaking in tongues is speaking. They are speaking in tongues and someone not getting the interpretation will think it gibberish but I hear it in my own language, via the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God is still available today, so the gifts of the Spirit is available today also, but who seeks the gifts, like Paul commanded? Certainly a person saying that the gifts left and are not available is not going to seek the gifts of the Spirit, but that doesn't mean they went away because the Spirit didn't go away. If you want them you ask with real desire. I did and I got them (the gifts) I didn't get them instantly, but it didn't take long. For the gift of tongues I asked three times, each two days apart and I got it.
 
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No - you leaned on your understanding of the Scripture, but what you wrote is not according to the Scriptures.
When you make a comment like that about someone, you need to prove it.

For example - you concluded that when a person speaks in tongues it is going to be a language of some people hear on earth, which is just an assumption!!
I never said it that way. Read my post again carefully so you don't twist my words to say something I never said.

There are reasons people make that assumption, but the reasons are because they don't understand and misinterpret.

Perhaps the most common miss interpretation, which I have explained carefully but either you didn't read or just can't except, is that people often read in Acts where is says that they all heard in their own language and they conclude that the other people were speaking in their own language. It doesn't says that they all spoke in the others peoples language, but that they all heard in their own language!! They spoke in tongue as lead by the Spirit, and we read in other places that tongues is the language of angels, not people. And I pointed out that if they were all speaking in another human language, like if a person from Spain spoke in German, they still could not have all heard in their own language, only the German person in that case could have heard in his language! You missed that. You made and assumption that did not match up with the Scriptures.
That is your assumption and you have the right to make it, like I have the right to make my own assumptions without being personally discredited.

Now if you were taught of the Lord, this would start becoming clear.
It is your unsubstantiated assumption that I am not being taught of the Lord.

The Lord can have a person speak in another human language, because all things are possible, but that is not how tongues usually works!
I can agree with that. It is rare that when a person speak in an unlearned language it can be understood by someone, but it is very rare. But it happened in my own church back in the 1970s.

Speaking in tongue with usually sound more like gibberish,
Tongues is an articulate and expressive language, although unlearned and not understood by the speaker. Actually many foreign languages sound like gibberish to us, yet those speakers understand each other. No conversational language is strictly formal and one can speak just a couple of words and his meaning can be clearly understood.

but the understanding comes with interpretation, which is most often gotten from the small voice of the Lord. Yet at times I hear in my spirit the interpretation in my own language (American) right as someone speaking in tongues is speaking. They are speaking in tongues and someone not getting the interpretation will think it gibberish but I hear it in my own language, via the Spirit of God.
I can't comment on that, except the interpretation is given by faith. I have never heard of anyone getting an interpretation of a tongue in the way you say you receive it. If you say God speaks to you directly like that, you need to add it to the text of your Bible because when God speaks directly, it is Scripture. But the Canon of Scripture is closed and God is not giving new revelation that has not already been given in Scripture. But there is no instruction manual on how to receive and give an interpretation to a tongue, so we have no clear instruction from Scripture about it. Also, when a person speaks in tongues, it is, as 1 Corinthians 14:2 says, it is to God, therefore an interpretation that takes the form of a prophecy to the people, may not be a true interpretation at all, but the thoughts of the person's own mind, unless the interpretation is directed to God as well as the spoken tongues.

The Spirit of God is still available today, so the gifts of the Spirit is available today also, but who seeks the gifts, like Paul commanded? Certainly a person saying that the gifts left and are not available is not going to seek the gifts of the Spirit, but that doesn't mean they went away because the Spirit didn't go away. If you want them you ask with real desire. I did and I got them (the gifts) I didn't get them instantly, but it didn't take long. For the gift of tongues I asked three times, each two days apart and I got it.
You said that something burst out of you and you had a sensory experience and out of it came tongues. I don't see that as an act of faith based on the Scripture alone. I see it based on your sensory experience, and without faith it is impossible to please God, and whatever is not of faith is sin. So if the indication that you receive the gift of tongues through a sensory experience, then your faith is in the experience and not in the Scripture, so if your faith is not in the Scripture it cannot be true faith.
 
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When you make a comment like that about someone, you need to prove it.

It was proved but you want to insist that everyone in Acts spoke in another human language when it doesn't say that nor does that assumption match up with the events.

It is written that the gift of tongues edifies!!

Edifies mean to teach in religious matters. So having tongues teaches you in religious matters! But what about the person you rejects God's gift on tongues? Well, they are not going to be edified (taught) in that area.

I used to surf, and I can talk to people about surfing waves. Yet, to really understand about surfing waves you are going to need to actually do it. That is true with a lot of things. It is also true with the gift of tongues, and especially true about the gift of tongues.

Jesus tried to explain things to Nicodemus, a student of the Scriptures and a teacher of the law, but Nicodemus had trouble understanding and he didn't accept the testimony of Jesus Christ!!! And that was when Jesus was talking about earthly things. If I talk to you about earthly things, like how if you have people from a number of nations you can't all hear them in your own language unless you have an interpreter, then how are you going to understand heavenly things? You aren't. Have you not seen anything about the United Nations, where people from many countries come together to talk. The person speaking does not speak in everyone's language at the same time. They only speak in one language, but by putting on head phones everyone can hear it in their own language. That is what the Bible says happened in Acts!! They all heard in their own language!!!!!!!!!!!

So they must have had an interpreter. The Spirit of God interprets tongues for you, or have you not read about the gift of interpretation. But the Spirit doesn't do that for everyone. You have to want the Spirit in your life. The devote did want the Spirit of God working in their lives, but others thought the devote were drunk!! You don't think someone drunk just because they are speaking a foreign language. You might think they are drunk if were sure what they were saying was not any human language. You also might think they were drunk if they happened to start shaking, falling down, and perhaps expressing considerable disproportionate joy. That is what happened then. It still happens now.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians with instructions about how to use the gift. Again, having a gift does not mean you know how to use it. The gift of tongues edifies (teaches in religious maters)!! Have you been taught or are you leaning on your own understanding of the Scriptures, like Nicodemus?

Jn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 
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It was proved but you want to insist that everyone in Acts spoke in another human language when it doesn't say that nor does that assumption match up with the events.
I never insisted on that at all. All I said was that it could happen, but it was rare.

It is written that the gift of tongues edifies!!
You need to quote the whole verse and not just part of it.

Edifies mean to teach in religious matters. So having tongues teaches you in religious matters! But what about the person you rejects God's gift on tongues? Well, they are not going to be edified (taught) in that area.
That's not what the verse says. It says, "A person speaking in tongues edifies himself". This is in harmony with Jude who said, "Building ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in the Spirit." It is important to keep to what the Scripture actually says instead of reading your own opinion into it, adding to the Scripture a different rendering of the clear sense of the verse. Doing what you are doing is weakening your argument, not strengthening it by demonstrating that you may not be reading the Scripture carefully to see what it is actually saying.

I used to surf, and I can talk to people about surfing waves. Yet, to really understand about surfing waves you are going to need to actually do it. That is true with a lot of things. It is also true with the gift of tongues, and especially true about the gift of tongues.
I can live with that.

Jesus tried to explain things to Nicodemus, a student of the Scriptures and a teacher of the law, but Nicodemus had trouble understanding and he didn't accept the testimony of Jesus Christ!!! And that was when Jesus was talking about earthly things. If I talk to you about earthly things, like how if you have people from a number of nations you can't all hear them in your own language unless you have an interpreter, then how are you going to understand heavenly things? You aren't. Have you not seen anything about the United Nations, where people from many countries come together to talk. The person speaking does not speak in everyone's language at the same time. They only speak in one language, but by putting on head phones everyone can hear it in their own language. That is what the Bible says happened in Acts!! They all heard in their own language!!!!!!!!!!!
You seem to be stuck on the Acts event, where I am talking about Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14.

o they must have had an interpreter. The Spirit of God interprets tongues for you, or have you not read about the gift of interpretation. But the Spirit doesn't do that for everyone. You have to want the Spirit in your life. The devote did want the Spirit of God working in their lives, but others thought the devote were drunk!! You don't think someone drunk just because they are speaking a foreign language. You might think they are drunk if were sure what they were saying was not any human language. You also might think they were drunk if they happened to start shaking, falling down, and perhaps expressing considerable disproportionate joy. That is what happened then. It still happens now.
I don't see how this is relevant at all to what I have been saying. All you seem to be doing is repeating your same points in successive posts.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians with instructions about how to use the gift. Again, having a gift does not mean you know how to use it. The gift of tongues edifies (teaches in religious maters)!! Have you been taught or are you leaning on your own understanding of the Scriptures, like Nicodemus?
As I said before, you are twisting the Scripture to make it say what you want it to say. Read the verse about edifying properly and you will see that it definitely does not say what you are making it say. Tongues is not for instructing anyone. It is spoken to God in the context of prayer. You are confusing tongues with prophecy!

Jn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
This is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the discussion on tongues - unless you are making some sort of veiled accusation - in which case, undermines your argument.
 
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Tongues is an articulate and expressive language, although unlearned and not understood by the speaker. Actually many foreign languages sound like gibberish to us, yet those speakers understand each other. No conversational language is strictly formal and one can speak just a couple of words and his meaning can be clearly understood.

Does a foreign language sound like gibberish to us?? No, it sound like a foreign language to us! I might think some foreign language sound pretty funny, but they are still virtually always recognize as some foreign language. You don't start supposing someone is drunk because they are speaking to each other in a foreign language, and especially if you expected it. With people from many different nations at that time of the year, people would have come to expect people talking to each other in a foreign language! Yet Peter had to get up an explain so some that the people speaking in tongues and hearing each other in their own language (and it does clarified them as "devote") were not drunk as they supposed?

Acts 12,13 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine

It is a real language, not gibberish.
It is used for prayer to God and not to anyone else.
It is what Paul and Jude describes as praying "in the Spirit".
It does not "burst" out of a person.
The person uses his own mouth and voice to speak the unlearned language.

So it tongues only used for prayer to God and not to anyone else?

I believe it mostly is, but why then did God have them all hearing in their own language and why did Paul insist on an interpretation. And indeed why did Paul writing that the one praying in tongue pray that he might interpret. An interpretation, by it's definition is making others aware of what is being said, and in this case making not only God but others, so not only to God and not anyone else!

Is it true to say that "It does not "burst" out of a person? There are times when I find that is what tends to happen. I certainly have ability to exercise some control, but often the Spirit comes upon me when I don't expect Him to and I get a manifestation of tongues. It does not usually happen when other people are around, but it does sometime happen. In Acts (and tongues should up there, though also discuss in 1 Corithians, so don't try to exclude part of the Bible, it's all important)...

You seem to be stuck on the Acts event, where I am talking about Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14.

...In Acts the Spirit fell like tongues of fire. That effect is interesting, because that is how it fell upon me when I got the gift. And when it just seems to "burst" out I tend to get that fire in my chest. There is something written about being Baptize with the Spirit and with fire!

Jer 19:9 But if I say, "I will not remember Him or speak anymore in His name," Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it.

So we can even go back to Jeremiah and see that God using the Spirit to bring a fire upon us to speak when we are trying to hold something in. And this is interesting to me, because as God does the work He does in me I get a greater understanding about God and the Bible ties together better.

Now I am not saying everyone got baptized with fire at this point, but there is still the promise of the baptism of the Spirit and with Fire. So perhaps someone got the baptism of the Spirit, and thus the gift of tongues, but did not get that baptism of fire which causes us to speak out even when we are saying to ourselves we will not speak out.

Anyway, from my experience, I did get 'fire' when I got the gift of tongues. And that fire tends to cause me to speak or perhaps I could say "Burst out", in tongues. That does mean I can not exercise any control, even control as Paul writes about in 1 Cor, but remember Paul said 'do not forbid speaking in tongues' but that it should be done orderly and with an interpreter and that the person praying in tongue should ask for the interpretation.

Now in my about 20 years since I got the gift, I have at times been at quiet a few churches. It's not that I have jumped around a lot, but the Lord has taken me to visit or for a purpose. Mostly they have been Charismatic, but not exclusively. In each church there seems to be a different way of handling the gifts of the Spirit! Paul wrote to many earlier Christian churches, and seemed to find some problem with all of them. John too.

Personally, I was generally ok with all of them that I went to, though I don't think any of them were using the gifts like I think should be done. Even the church that God has asked me to attend for the last ten years, does not use and apply the gifts anywhere close like I believe they should be. There is no "bursting out" in tongues on display at the church I go to. It's a kind of conservative Charismatic church. The gifts are used in back rooms and perhaps small groups. It is certainly not like the church at Corinth! And honest, it does seem like tongues is forbidden (at least by general consent and peer pressure) in the main service. I have never hear tongue or interpretation in the main service. That is not what Paul was saying either, was it.

And you know what? The Spirit does not cause that fire to come on me in the main service either..???

In the elevator at the church is another matter. I don't know how many times I have been riding the elevator at my church when the Spirit hit me with fire and tongues and it just burst out!!!

The problem I have in general is the blanket statements that appear to limit God!!!

Statements like "It is used for prayer to God and not to anyone else." That may be mostly true, but don't limit God and especially when the Bible clearly explains that it was used that way. It might be to God and is certainly from being lead by the Spirit, but others might also need to know what is being said in the Spirit, and that other maybe you.

Also I don't like "It does not "burst" out of a person." Maybe it doesn't burst out in you, but that does not mean the Spirit can not cause it to burst out in others!!

We try to limit God with our understanding, and that is especially true when we lean on our understanding of the Scriptures instead of taking the Scriptures to the Lord and asking Him about them.

The Lord once told me, "Karl, don't put Me in a box, not even a Bible box." Is it not written that if all that Jesus did was written down that perhaps the whole earth couldn't contain it. But we always want to make rules according to our understand, when we need to be pointing people to Him. That bothers me.
 
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Does a foreign language sound like gibberish to us?? No, it sound like a foreign language to us! I might think some foreign language sound pretty funny, but they are still virtually always recognize as some foreign language. You don't start supposing someone is drunk because they are speaking to each other in a foreign language, and especially if you expected it. With people from many different nations at that time of the year, people would have come to expect people talking to each other in a foreign language! Yet Peter had to get up an explain so some that the people speaking in tongues and hearing each other in their own language (and it does clarified them as "devote") were not drunk as they supposed?

Acts 12,13 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine
It was not that they were speaking in tongues. It was observing the joy, laughter, and rejoicing that was going on so early in the day.

So it tongues only used for prayer to God and not to anyone else?
That's what 1 Corinthians 14:2 says. Are you going to add to God's Word?

I believe it mostly is, but why then did God have them all hearing in their own language and why did Paul insist on an interpretation. And indeed why did Paul writing that the one praying in tongue pray that he might interpret. An interpretation, by it's definition is making others aware of what is being said, and in this case making not only God but others, so not only to God and not anyone else!
I heard a good explanation of that. There is the grace of tongues which is available for every believer to enable them to pray in the Spirit. Then there is the gift of tongues which is for speaking out in the public meeting and needs to be interpreted. Paul was quite clear in 1 Corinthians 14, that if a person was not using the gift of tongues which the expectation of an interpretation in the public meeting, he should continue using his prayer language and speak to himself and to God. Paul said that praying in tongues is "giving thanks well", so he had no problem with people praying in tongues, but not out loud in public unless there was an interpreter present.

Is it true to say that "It does not "burst" out of a person? There are times when I find that is what tends to happen. I certainly have ability to exercise some control, but often the Spirit comes upon me when I don't expect Him to and I get a manifestation of tongues. It does not usually happen when other people are around, but it does sometime happen. In Acts (and tongues should up there, though also discuss in 1 Corithians, so don't try to exclude part of the Bible, it's all important)...
The Scripture says that whatever is not of faith is sin, and without faith it is impossible the please God. The Apostle to the Hebrews defines faith as "the evidence of things not seen and the assurance of things hoped for." Faith is total dependence on the written promises in God's Word. Faith in anything else is not true Scriptural faith and doesn't please God. He sees it as sin.

This means that anyone who has faith in physical and sensory feelings, emotions and manifestations over and above the written Scriptures is sinning, and is not pleasing God at all.

Applying this to tongues: If a person believes that their prayer language is real on the basis of some type of sensory feeling, emotion or manifestation, then they are more likely to be in the flesh or are being controlled by another spirit and not the Holy Spirit. Genuine tongues are spoken through faith in what is written in 1 Corinthians 14. It is a deliberate, voluntary act of faith where the person, regardless of any feeling, or lack of it, asks for, receives and starts to speak syllables, phrases and sentences in an unlearned language. He starts out with his attempts, trusting that the Holy Spirit will give him the words. In response to his faith, he finds himself speaking a fluent language. Nothing is rising up or bursting out of him. He just starts doing it in a cold-blooded manner because he believes and trusts in 1 Corinthians 14, and the fact that God is faithful to give him exactly what he asked for and received by faith.

...In Acts the Spirit fell like tongues of fire. That effect is interesting, because that is how it fell upon me when I got the gift. And when it just seems to "burst" out I tend to get that fire in my chest. There is something written about being Baptize with the Spirit and with fire!
What happened on the day of Pentecost was a one-time event. The disciples weren't expecting it. The same with the other Acts accounts. But Paul describes the speaking in tongues as a voluntary act and it is in the total control of the speaker concerning when and where to speak. If you are depending on "fire in my chest" or something "bursting out" of you, then I put it to you that this is where your faith is, and not on 1 Corinthians 14. And that your faith is in something sensory instead of the written Scripture.

This is where many Charismatics go wrong, and this is why there are so many wacky manifestations going on. They think they are closer, or right with God because of the jerking, shaking, falling down and uncontrolled gabbling in fleshly tongues. But they are not having faith in the Scripture, and therefore are sinning through unbelief and not pleasing God; thereby bringing the Charismatic movement into disrepute and blocking many good people from the true working and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Jer 19:9 But if I say, "I will not remember Him or speak anymore in His name," Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it.

So we can even go back to Jeremiah and see that God using the Spirit to bring a fire upon us to speak when we are trying to hold something in. And this is interesting to me, because as God does the work He does in me I get a greater understanding about God and the Bible ties together better.
This was not to do with speaking in tongues as a personal prayer language. This was because Jeremiah was a shy man, not willing to make a spectacle of himself, and the Holy Spirit burned in his heart with the prophetic word to such a degree that he had to overcome his natural reluctance. It is the same with Paul, who said, "Woe is me, if I don't preach the gospel!" So with Jeremiah and Paul, it was not some burning manifestation inside of them, but a burning desire from the Holy Spirit in them to proclaim God's word to the people.

Now I am not saying everyone got baptized with fire at this point, but there is still the promise of the baptism of the Spirit and with Fire. So perhaps someone got the baptism of the Spirit, and thus the gift of tongues, but did not get that baptism of fire which causes us to speak out even when we are saying to ourselves we will not speak out.
The "fire" part of John prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost with the manifestation "as of fire" (not actual fire) sat on the heads of the disciples. It was not a "fire" within them that burst out of them.

Anyway, from my experience, I did get 'fire' when I got the gift of tongues. And that fire tends to cause me to speak or perhaps I could say "Burst out", in tongues. That does mean I can not exercise any control, even control as Paul writes about in 1 Cor, but remember Paul said 'do not forbid speaking in tongues' but that it should be done orderly and with an interpreter and that the person praying in tongue should ask for the interpretation.
I think you need to reconsider the basis on which you speak in tongues. You need to re-adjust your faith and put it squarely on 1 Corinthians 14, and take over control of the language and not depend on any feeling, emotion, or sensory "fire" inside of yourself before you decide to speak it. You can ask God to guide your voice, and then you start speaking the language. You will be surprised at the quality of the language that comes out of you. Then you will be praying from your heart and fully expressing it to God in the Spirit, rather than being motivated by some kind of manifestation that rises up and "bursts out of you".

There is a particular joy, peace and sense of fulfillment when we pray in tongues. There is a witness in our spirit that God is listening and is understanding us. Then things start happening around us that show that God is working with us, creating our future and guiding us in the way He wants us to go.

Now in my about 20 years since I got the gift, I have at times been at quiet a few churches. It's not that I have jumped around a lot, but the Lord has taken me to visit or for a purpose. Mostly they have been Charismatic, but not exclusively. In each church there seems to be a different way of handling the gifts of the Spirit! Paul wrote to many earlier Christian churches, and seemed to find some problem with all of them. John too.
:)

Personally, I was generally ok with all of them that I went to, though I don't think any of them were using the gifts like I think should be done. Even the church that God has asked me to attend for the last ten years, does not use and apply the gifts anywhere close like I believe they should be. There is no "bursting out" in tongues on display at the church I go to. It's a kind of conservative Charismatic church. The gifts are used in back rooms and perhaps small groups. It is certainly not like the church at Corinth! And honest, it does seem like tongues is forbidden (at least by general consent and peer pressure) in the main service. I have never hear tongue or interpretation in the main service. That is not what Paul was saying either, was it.

And you know what? The Spirit does not cause that fire to come on me in the main service either..???

In the elevator at the church is another matter. I don't know how many times I have been riding the elevator at my church when the Spirit hit me with fire and tongues and it just burst out!!!

The problem I have in general is the blanket statements that appear to limit God!!!

Statements like "It is used for prayer to God and not to anyone else." That may be mostly true, but don't limit God and especially when the Bible clearly explains that it was used that way. It might be to God and is certainly from being lead by the Spirit, but others might also need to know what is being said in the Spirit, and that other maybe you.

Also I don't like "It does not "burst" out of a person." Maybe it doesn't burst out in you, but that does not mean the Spirit can not cause it to burst out in others!!

We try to limit God with our understanding, and that is especially true when we lean on our understanding of the Scriptures instead of taking the Scriptures to the Lord and asking Him about them.

The Lord once told me, "Karl, don't put Me in a box, not even a Bible box." Is it not written that if all that Jesus did was written down that perhaps the whole earth couldn't contain it. But we always want to make rules according to our understand, when we need to be pointing people to Him. That bothers me.
I think that a good and careful reading and study of 1 Corinthians 14, asking the Holy Spirit to give you the proper insight into what Paul is teaching there. That chapter is the only definitive teaching about tongues so it is important to study everything that Paul says about it, and not try to overlay what he is teaching with extra-Biblical teaching that many Charismatics add to the chapter. When you come back to what Paul actually teaches, and you, as I did after 45 years of doing it the standard Charismatic way and then learning it was not the way Paul taught it, will have a much greater confidence in what you are doing and speaking when you are praying in tongues.

There is a good book, the best I have read so far:
http://www.daveroberson.org/Media/7/WOSWOP Portrait 10.pdf

This will give you some valuable insights into tongues and I think it will bless you! "-)
 
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K2K

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It was not that they were speaking in tongues. It was observing the joy, laughter, and rejoicing that was going on so early in the day.

We jump to conclusions. We make judgements. And often our judgements are not really that good. I suppose they could have thought them drunk just because they were observing the joy, laughter, and rejoicing early in the day. But just because someone is observing joy early in the morning, do you automatically think they are drunk? Not me. There are a lot of reason a person or persons might be extremely happy in the morning, and unless I know the person or persons have history of being drunk and disorderly I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

So I would think there must have been more than just being happy in the morning.

Now I have been to many churches and I have seen the Spirit move in many ways. I have also seen people quick to make judgements about those churches!!!!!!!

People, even 'Christian' people like to make judgements and jump to conclusion. As people we do have to come to some conclusions, but we at least should remain open minded and recognized what is our conclusion and what is the truth. Jesus is the truth! He is the word of God! When He tells me something that is the truth, not my conclusions! And even my conclusions about what He said means is still my conclusions!! We understand that right? Probably not like we should.

Honestly, I was there 2000 years ago when it all happened, but to me, it doesn't make sense to conclude they were drunk simply because they were talking to each other in a foreign language and having fun doing it. And especially based upon my twenty years of experience with God. Yeah, I have found very conservative people, that seem to refuse to enjoy the presence of God who seem to have the gift of tongue and they use in the private lives or in back rooms.

That in general actually describes the rather conservative Charismatic church the Lord has me going to. There belief is that tongue should not even be used in the main service, and so it is not heard there. So there is no interpretation of tongues either. No prophecy either, not at the main services, and it is a big church with numerous services. Paul did not describe that in 1 Corinthians 14 !!! Yet they think they are doing everything according to the Bible. Hey - they are still Christians. They still know the Lord.

Yet I have also been at and for about five years regularly attending per the Lord and much less conservative Charismatic church. Now you did see tongue with interpretation at the main service there. You also saw prophecy at the main service. They tried to make sure there was some order, per Paul writings, yet the Spirit would often cause someone to instantly pass out on the floor, especially when prayed for and they loved praying for other people in the front.

My current church also love praying for people in the front, but the people show very little sign of being effected by the presence of the Spirit. I am not saying that is bad or good, but frankly, I liked the church my Lord had me going to before better. That is my judgment/ conclusion -- that I like the presence of the Lord coming on in more powerful ways. I think.. stressing that this is my thinking... that when the Spirit fell like tongues in Acts, the people were also probably falling down, perhaps jerking or having trouble waking straight, and that is why the others that were not being lead by the Spirit thought they were drunk. It make more since!!

I personally would not think someone drunk simply because they were happy in the morning, but if they were stumbling around because of the presence of the Spirit then I might think it. Perhaps not me, because I have seen and understand the different ways the Spirit works and how people limit Him, but I would certainly understand how others would jump to that conclusion.

So I have conclusions and judgments also. I have to. One of my conclusions it that I need to seek the Lord and what He says about things. He took me to both the churches. He liked both the churches. Yet He also says according to your faith. So if I don't believe God would come upon someone and fill them with such power and joy that they might even go stumbling to the ground as if drunk, then according to your faith it is going to be that way with you. He is not going to fill you with the Spirit in such a way. The Lord respects your belief, but that does mean your belief is correct!
 
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We jump to conclusions. We make judgements. And often our judgements are not really that good. I suppose they could have thought them drunk just because they were observing the joy, laughter, and rejoicing early in the day. But just because someone is observing joy early in the morning, do you automatically think they are drunk? Not me. There are a lot of reason a person or persons might be extremely happy in the morning, and unless I know the person or persons have history of being drunk and disorderly I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

So I would think there must have been more than just being happy in the morning.

Now I have been to many churches and I have seen the Spirit move in many ways. I have also seen people quick to make judgements about those churches!!!!!!!

People, even 'Christian' people like to make judgements and jump to conclusion. As people we do have to come to some conclusions, but we at least should remain open minded and recognized what is our conclusion and what is the truth. Jesus is the truth! He is the word of God! When He tells me something that is the truth, not my conclusions! And even my conclusions about what He said means is still my conclusions!! We understand that right? Probably not like we should.

Honestly, I was there 2000 years ago when it all happened, but to me, it doesn't make sense to conclude they were drunk simply because they were talking to each other in a foreign language and having fun doing it. And especially based upon my twenty years of experience with God. Yeah, I have found very conservative people, that seem to refuse to enjoy the presence of God who seem to have the gift of tongue and they use in the private lives or in back rooms.

That in general actually describes the rather conservative Charismatic church the Lord has me going to. There belief is that tongue should not even be used in the main service, and so it is not heard there. So there is no interpretation of tongues either. No prophecy either, not at the main services, and it is a big church with numerous services. Paul did not describe that in 1 Corinthians 14 !!! Yet they think they are doing everything according to the Bible. Hey - they are still Christians. They still know the Lord.

Yet I have also been at and for about five years regularly attending per the Lord and much less conservative Charismatic church. Now you did see tongue with interpretation at the main service there. You also saw prophecy at the main service. They tried to make sure there was some order, per Paul writings, yet the Spirit would often cause someone to instantly pass out on the floor, especially when prayed for and they loved praying for other people in the front.

My current church also love praying for people in the front, but the people show very little sign of being effected by the presence of the Spirit. I am not saying that is bad or good, but frankly, I liked the church my Lord had me going to before better. That is my judgment/ conclusion -- that I like the presence of the Lord coming on in more powerful ways. I think.. stressing that this is my thinking... that when the Spirit fell like tongues in Acts, the people were also probably falling down, perhaps jerking or having trouble waking straight, and that is why the others that were not being lead by the Spirit thought they were drunk. It make more since!!

I personally would not think someone drunk simply because they were happy in the morning, but if they were stumbling around because of the presence of the Spirit then I might think it. Perhaps not me, because I have seen and understand the different ways the Spirit works and how people limit Him, but I would certainly understand how others would jump to that conclusion.

So I have conclusions and judgments also. I have to. One of my conclusions it that I need to seek the Lord and what He says about things. He took me to both the churches. He liked both the churches. Yet He also says according to your faith. So if I don't believe God would come upon someone and fill them with such power and joy that they might even go stumbling to the ground as if drunk, then according to your faith it is going to be that way with you. He is not going to fill you with the Spirit in such a way. The Lord respects your belief, but that does mean your belief is correct!
After all my comments and debate about the issues, you will enjoy my posts on the Pentecostal thread where I said that Pentecostal people have the attitude that they can worship the Lord in any way they jolly well please and anti-Pentecostals can just shut up and attend their own funeral services where people go to church as if they are going to the dentist, and sit in church like passive wooden statues as if they are sitting in the dentist's waiting room! :)

I have been in services where people have shaken, jerked, fallen over, spoken in tongues and prophesied. In all these services I have never seen any chaos about it, and the leadership have moderated proceedings to ensure that everything is done decently and in order. When I first attended a Pentecostal church at the age of 19, I was impressed by how friendly and welcoming the people were, and I found myself in the middle of 400 people speaking in tongues and prophesying. People sang their hymns and songs from their hearts, and church for them was pleasant and fun. I even saw a demon being cast out of a guy and he screamed like a stuck pig, and I thought, "I've never seen a guy die like that before." Incidentally, in later years, that guy became a very successful pastor of a church!

I had attended Anglican and Presbyterian churches before that, and was influenced to believe that every person was automatically a Christian. In that Pentecostal church I heard the gospel for the first time and the need to make a personal decision for Christ, which I did. From then on church was exciting and fun for me, and I couldn't get enough of it.

So, if there are people who believe that jerking, shaking, laughing, falling down, makes them holy, then who am I to forbid them, even though I don't think that those things would make me holy? Who do I think I am to legislate for others how they should worship God. Michal, David's wife criticised him in her heart because he danced with all his might before the ark of the Lord. David didn't get disciplined by the Lord for it, but she did!

I know that this is a bit of a turn around for me, seeing that I have express doubts about kundalini manifestations in Charismatic services, but I realise that most of these happen in meetings where the prosperity and "we are gods" type of doctrines are preached, and false teachers are hearing extra-Biblical "voices" giving them "new" revelation that the Bible doesn't mention at all.

So I have to draw the distinction between standard Pentecostal services where sound gospel is preached and people worship with fun and laughter but with decency and order. It is when these things get out of control and chaotic that problems arise. But this is rare in most standard Pentecostal groups where there is good, sound, gospel oriented leadership.

I enjoy Derek Prince and his teaching, and he says about holy rollers, "If rolling makes us holy, then let's roll!"
 
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K2K

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After all my comments and debate about the issues, you will enjoy my posts on the Pentecostal thread where I said that Pentecostal people have the attitude that they can worship the Lord in any way they jolly well please and anti-Pentecostals can just shut up and attend their own funeral services where people go to church as if they are going to the dentist, and sit in church like passive wooden statues as if they are sitting in the dentist's waiting room! :)

I have been in services where people have shaken, jerked, fallen over, spoken in tongues and prophesied. In all these services I have never seen any chaos about it, and the leadership have moderated proceedings to ensure that everything is done decently and in order. When I first attended a Pentecostal church at the age of 19, I was impressed by how friendly and welcoming the people were, and I found myself in the middle of 400 people speaking in tongues and prophesying. People sang their hymns and songs from their hearts, and church for them was pleasant and fun. I even saw a demon being cast out of a guy and he screamed like a stuck pig, and I thought, "I've never seen a guy die like that before." Incidentally, in later years, that guy became a very successful pastor of a church!

I had attended Anglican and Presbyterian churches before that, and was influenced to believe that every person was automatically a Christian. In that Pentecostal church I heard the gospel for the first time and the need to make a personal decision for Christ, which I did. From then on church was exciting and fun for me, and I couldn't get enough of it.

So, if there are people who believe that jerking, shaking, laughing, falling down, makes them holy, then who am I to forbid them, even though I don't think that those things would make me holy? Who do I think I am to legislate for others how they should worship God. Michal, David's wife criticised him in her heart because he danced with all his might before the ark of the Lord. David didn't get disciplined by the Lord for it, but she did!

I know that this is a bit of a turn around for me, seeing that I have express doubts about kundalini manifestations in Charismatic services, but I realise that most of these happen in meetings where the prosperity and "we are gods" type of doctrines are preached, and false teachers are hearing extra-Biblical "voices" giving them "new" revelation that the Bible doesn't mention at all.

So I have to draw the distinction between standard Pentecostal services where sound gospel is preached and people worship with fun and laughter but with decency and order. It is when these things get out of control and chaotic that problems arise. But this is rare in most standard Pentecostal groups where there is good, sound, gospel oriented leadership.

I enjoy Derek Prince and his teaching, and he says about holy rollers, "If rolling makes us holy, then let's roll!"

I did like the above post, so the ending comment "If rolling makes us holy, then let's roll!"

Look, my relationship with the Lord is just that - my relationship with Him.

Now I have had Him do many things around and to me, but mostly my relationship is about just walking and talking with Him. "We talk" - is how my relationship with the Lord is best described - however I have not only seen but experienced most of what was described, and it was from Him. For example; He once asked me to organized a 24 hour period of unceasing prayer at my church. So I did it. I had different people/groups come in and take an hour of prayer. I was pretty much the entire time. Early in the morning after about 22 hours of prayer, I was praying with about four friends of mine when the Spirit suddenly cause us all to hit the floor. We were all stuck on the floor. It wasn't painful, it was just strange being stuck to the floor for about ten minutes and kind of funny too.

Now I remember once reading that God would never do that, from a well know Christian author. People say all kinds of things about Him, but they are not Him. He did it to us, and it wasn't hard to tell why. After 22 hours of praying and it being about 5 AM at the time we needed something just like that to rejuvenate us and keep us awake. It was fun. God can be fun. Have we not read that Isaac (laughter) was the promise son to Abraham? I think, but I am not sure, that when the Spirit with tongues like fire that He did indeed bring joy to them, and it must have been enough joy in some form or another, to cause others to think they were drunk in the morning.

It was God that did that, and Christians -even the famous author types - can think what they want. Still they need to walk and talk with Him. I do that and strange things happen at times. I not only get dreams, visions, tongues, but soooo much more also. Not everything that Jesus did was recorded in the Bible. It clearly says we need to be born again and that means hearing the sound of the wind, but not knowing where it comes from or where it is going. :)
 
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