Struggles with Calvinism

Dave L said:

I write brief articles. But why read posts you know are going nowhere? Why take something on if you don't think it is worth the time?

Click to expand...

That's fine but it's not all that you said in your last post. I've noticed posts just like the bible is referring to on this same type thread we are on now. They came from posts trying to explain how our salvation is eternal. I've commented on them before, the long winded twists and turns. the denial, and what not.

So yeah, those foolish post do exist, and not just in the area of the examples I mentioned...A long post trying to explain why the mark of the beast is Sunday worship was my very favorite. Still, every long post is not foolish nor do they denote a fool... that's my only point.

I was under the impression that the CONCEPTS which later came to be expressed as TULIP were from Dort, but that the actual acronym was after 1900

twin1954 said:

Of course He does. If He didn't then some things take Him by surprise and He learns and changes. If He looks down through time to see what happens the same thing is true.

If God has not ordained every minute detail then He is reacting to us and must then learn something that He didn't already know.

Click to expand...

No, all he has to do is know what will happen. To ordain or decree everything that happens would make God the only real sinner, as he would ultimately be the cause of all sin.

Butch5 said:

in both cases God is the one who does or does not control the events that take place.

Click to expand...

You'll have to tell me what you mean by "control the events that take place.

If you mean that He decrees that they take place in history then I agree that He does that. If you mean that He authors sin or forces people to make sinful choices - well - how many times must I school you concerning your use of this straw man? It's wearing a little thin.

Butch5 said:

f God is writing the story you can't have Him not doing something and yet Him also ordaining that very thing.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense. Unless it's your old misrepresentation of what I believe and teach.

Butch5 said:

Looking at the verses you've posted, you've got to find a way to reconcile them that doesn't cause contradiction. If the way they're reconciled causes contradiction you can't just say there's no contradiction.

Click to expand...

I have reconciled them many times. What I have not attempted to reconcile and never would try to is your ill informed and misrepresented statements about what is being said.

Butch5 said:

To say that God ordained Caiaphas' choices, yet Caiaphas had free choice in the matter doesn't work

Click to expand...

It works perfectly. What doesn't work is saying that God authored Caiaphas' choices and forced him to make them as he did and yet he had free choice in the matter. Of course that's your straw man and not mine isn't it?

Butch5 said:

Regarding the passage in Ephesian 1, since you have considered it in context, can I assume that you understand that it is in a passage that is speaking of the Jews? In that context what is God's will?

Click to expand...

That's absolutely ridiculous and just the kind of stretch you might make in order to avoid certain truths at all costs.

But then whether the passage be as you say or otherwise contextually, the point concerning Him working all thing according to His will still stands.

Gotta take a long break now.

When I finally return - see if you can refute what is actually being taught rather than what you falsely say is being taught.

If you won't do that - I will try to break this conversation off permanently.

You know what they say about the definition of insanity.

Predestination is by FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Calvinists are divided up into 5-pointers, 4-pointers, and 3-pointers.

Arminians are not a homogenous group either. There are some that are Corporate Predestination and some Individual Predestination. Both types are represented in writings of Arminius.

Arminians are divided on OSAS VS OSnAS also.

twin1954 said:

The passage states that all things are of Him and to Him and for Him.

God doesn't want or wish or try. He purposes. Man wants because he may or may not be able to attain it. Not so with God.

Man wishes because he may or may not attain what he wishes for. Not so with God.

Man tries because he can only do so much. He is limited in his efforts. Not so with God.

In His infinite wisdom He purposed everything to bring to pass whatever He intends. He is never thwarted, never frustrated and never fails.

Daniel 4:34-35 (KJV) 34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm still not seeing your point. I don't think anyone is arguing that God's plans get thwarted. God can do whatever He pleases. The question is what does He please to do.

Tra Phull said:

Is it true or not that the acronym TULIP was first coined around 1905?

Click to expand...

It comes from the Synod of Dort in which 92 delegates from Holland, Germany, England, Switzerland and others came together to give a response to the Remonstrants. It happened in 1618 and lasted for 7 months. You can read about it in the book, "The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended and Documented " by Steele and Thomas. I believe it can be found free of charge on the Internet.

I personally don't care for the acronym. It leaves much to be explained. I prefer Particular Redemption and effectual calling. I prefer to call them the Doctrines of Grace.

I have no idea when the acronym was coined. It doesn't really matter.

Tra Phull said:

Predestination is by FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Calvinists are divided up into 5-pointers, 4-pointers, and 3-pointers.

Arminians are not a homogenous group either. There are some that are Corporate Predestination and some Individual Predestination. Both types are represented in writings of Arminius.

Arminians are divided on OSAS VS OSnAS also.

Click to expand...

The word predestined is always connected to men. So is the word foreknowledge. God foreknows men not things. That would be a different word in the Greek. It would be the word foresight.

renniks said:

No, all he has to do is know what will happen. To ordain or decree everything that happens would make God the only real sinner, as he would ultimately be the cause of all sin.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. He determined and ordained all things in order to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy. He determined that sin enter the world He didn't cause it. Adam was not deceived according to Paul. Adam knew, against all his experience with God, what he was doing.

Kenny'sID said:

That's fine but it's not all that you said in your last post. I've noticed posts just like the bible is referring to on this same type thread we are on now. They came from posts trying to explain how our salvation is eternal. I've commented on them before, the long winded twists and turns. the denial, and what not.

So yeah, those foolish post do exist, and not just in the area of the examples I mentioned...A long post trying to explain why the mark of the beast is Sunday worship was my very favorite. Still, every long post is not foolish nor do they denote a fool... that's my only point.

Click to expand...

I agree if the post is worth investing in. But as I said, I read topically. So if I don't think the writer will add to my collection of truth, I usually read the first paragraph skim, and and answer it or the last paragraph instead.

Butch5 said:

Sorry, I'm still not seeing your point. I don't think anyone is arguing that God's plans get thwarted. God can do whatever He pleases. The question is what does He please to do.

Click to expand...

Read the passage again paying close attention to the last verse.

He pleases to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy through Christ Jesus the Lord.

Exodus 33:17-19 (KJV) 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Colossians 1:15-20 (KJV) 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

His student said:

You'll have to tell me what you mean by "control the events that take place.

If you mean that He decrees that they take place in history then I agree that He does that. If you mean that He authors sin or forces people to make sinful choices - well - how many times must I school you concerning your use of this straw man? It's wearing a little thin.

Click to expand...

The incessant appeal to straw man arguments and misrepresentation just points to the weakness of your argument.

That makes no sense. Unless it's your old misrepresentation of what I believe and teach.

Click to expand...

It makes perfect sense. I just think you don't want to answer it.

I have reconciled them many times. What I have not attempted to reconcile and never would try to is your ill informed and misrepresented statements about what is being said.

Click to expand...

You've reconciled them many times? Yet your conclusion is a logical contradiction. How does that work?

It works perfectly. What doesn't work is saying that God authored Caiaphas' choices and forced him to make them as he did and yet he had free choice in the matter. Of course that's your straw man and not mine isn't it?

Click to expand...

If it works perfectly then you should be able to answer this question. If God ordained Caiaphas' choices could he have not made those choices, and if not, how?

That's absolutely ridiculous and just the kind of stretch you might make in order to avoid certain truths at all costs.

But then whether the passage be as you say or otherwise contextually, the point concerning Him working all thing according to His will still stands.

Click to expand...

It's not ridiculous. Your statement shows me that you don't understand the context. However, I knew that from the way quoted the passage. When Paul said that God works all things according to the council of His will, the statement is qualified in the next verse. That we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His Glory. Those who had first trusted, or literally, before hoped in Christ were the Jews.

twin1954 said:

Read the passage again paying close attention to the last verse.

He pleases to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy through Christ Jesus the Lord.

Exodus 33:17-19 (KJV) 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Colossians 1:15-20 (KJV) 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Click to expand...

I am going to have to assume that you can't explain it since you've chosen not to. If you're referring to all things are of Him, does that include sin?

Butch5 said:

The incessant appeal to straw man arguments and misrepresentation just points to the weakness of your argument.

It makes perfect sense. I just think you don't want to answer it.



You've reconciled them many times? Yet your conclusion is a logical contradiction. How does that work?



If it works perfectly then you should be able to answer this question. If God ordained Caiaphas' choices could he have not made those choices, and if not, how?



It's not ridiculous. Your statement shows me that you don't understand the context. However, I knew that from the way quoted the passage. When Paul said that God works all things according to the council of His will, the statement is qualified in the next verse. That we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His Glory. Those who had first trusted, or literally, before hoped in Christ were the Jews.

Click to expand...

God ordained that Caiaphas do what he did in order to bring to pass the humiliation and death of Christ. Yet Caiaphas did exactly as he wanted to without coercion or force.

Proverbs 16:1 (KJV) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 (KJV) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 (KJV) The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Butch5 said:

I am going to have to assume that you can't explain it since you've chosen not to. If you're referring to all things are of Him, does that include sin?

Click to expand...

What do you need for me to explain?

It includes all things just as the passage states.

My point is that the Scriptures teach that the assertion that both God's foreordination and man doing according to his fallen will cannot be both true is a false dichotomy. Man does exactly as he desires and he does exactly as God ordained that he do. Peter says so very clearly in Acts 2.

Man's responsibility doesn't derive from his ability or inability to make choices but from the fact that we are subject to God as the Creator and Ruler. We must all answer to God for our rebellion either in ourselves or in the Son our Savior.

twin1954 said:

God ordained that Caiaphas do what he did in order to bring to pass the humiliation and death of Christ. Yet Caiaphas did exactly as he wanted to without coercion or force.

Proverbs 16:1 (KJV) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 (KJV) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 (KJV) The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Click to expand...

If God ordained it and it had to come to pass, Caiaphas had no choice or free will. This is what you guys can't get around, no matter how hard you try. If you're going to claim that God ordains everything that happens as the Confession says, whatsoever comes to pass, there's no option for free will, no matter how hard you try.

twin1954 said:

What do you need for me to explain?

It includes all things just as the passage states.

Click to expand...

Earlier you said that the context qualifies all. How does the context of what Paul is saying in Romans 9-11 qualify all in the passage you posted?

And it does DO VIOLENCE to our free wills, regardless of the double-speak in the Worstminster Confusion.