The ethics of voting for Donald Trump

ViaCrucis said:

And I was speaking of the "least of these" which Jesus spoke of, namely the hungry, the thirsty, the immigrant, the naked, the sick, and those in prison. For whatever is done to them is done to Him.

To despise our fellow man, created in the image of God, is evil. And I have provided the evidence you asked for when you asked if there was anything to show that Donald Trump is evil. Now what you do with that information is up to you.

-CryptoLutheran

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The "least of these" is the most helpless, without a voice to defend themselves, headed for "death", as is written in Isaiah.

Defending and speaking up for those without a voice is preventing innocent bloodshed, just as it was in the Holocaust. There are still the equivalent of the "least of these" headed for death, and "innocent bloodshed". Those who defend these "least of these" are not evil. We are, perhaps "flawed", but are the antithesis of anything "evil", this includes Trump, who is fighting for, and defending the "least of these".

Albion said:

However, it is a gross distortion of the facts to imply that President Trump is opposed to taxpayers financing a private concern such as Planned Parenthood for the reason mentioned in this ^ post.

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It’s not a private concern if it actively prevents not only what the OP characterizes as a “Holocaust,” but also STDs, a public health concern. Not to mention the tax burden an unwanted baby would likely impose on the state should the mother look to social programs for assistance. Funding PP is actually good for conservatives all around. Again, he’s just pushing whatever agenda gets frenzied applause at his rallies.

gaara4158 said:

It’s not a private concern if it actively prevents not only what the OP characterizes as a “Holocaust,” but also STDs, a public health concern.

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Planned Parenthood is not a government agency. It is a private, non-governmental, organization.

brinny said:

The "least of these" is the most helpless, without a voice to defend themselves, headed for "death", as is written in Isaiah.

Defending and speaking up for those without a voice is preventing innocent bloodshed, just as it was in the Holocaust. There are still the equivalent of the "least of these" headed for death, and "innocent bloodshed". Those who defend these "least of these" are not evil. We are, perhaps "flawed", but are the antithesis of anything "evil", this includes Trump, who is fighting for, and defending the "least of these".

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I see no reason to continue this conversation. Enjoy your day.

-CryptoLutheran

Albion said:

Planned Parenthood is not a government agency. It is a private, non-governmental, organization.

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And? You’re saying it’s more important to leave non-government agencies to their own devices than to prevent up to 4 million abortions per year?

gaara4158 said:

Lack of access to contraception is the biggest contributor to abortions carried out, illicit or otherwise. Organizations like Planned Parenthood provide would-be mothers access to contraception. Trump is against such organizations — in fact, he’s rallied on the idea of shutting it down completely. Therefore, a vote for Trump is a vote for more abortions. It’s not necessarily because he’s evil or monstrous. He’s just an idiot, or at least thinks you are. Don’t prove him right. Don’t vote for him.

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Stanfordella said:

Correct, and quite the opposite is still happening in the present at a dismayingly higher frequency, and will persist in happening in the future if lessons from history are never learned.

Switzerland achieved and has maintained one of the lowest rates of abortions in the developed world by addressing it....... in the opposite manner of Republicans in the United States; purely pragmatically with a focus on productive resolutions for the three main factors in unwanted pregnancy - education, access to affordable and reliable contraception, and socioeconomic level. It's no longer a matter of expensive political theater for the audience of voters for them. In 2002 abortion was legalized by popular referendum, after its criminal prohibition had ceased to be observed in practice for many decades. In 2014, Swiss voters rejected an initiative to remove the coverage of abortions by the public health insurance system because they realized to do so would be counterproductive; the abortion rate gradually fell over the dozen years since it had been made fully legal and covered for free as a medical procedure. Their abortion rate per capita is substantially lower than the official abortion rate for the United States, and we also have a surging unofficial rate.

Abortifacients have been in existence since antiquity, and in the modern-era are more affordable and simpler to obtain safely via the internet, without going to a licensed clinic. The medication I take for treating my stomach ulcers is actually identical to what is given to induce miscarriage, just with a different label and price point. Which is why many order it on the black market, with as much ease as alcohol was obtained during Prohibition. The elaborate and expensive legal efforts to shutter Planned Parenthood are not only futile but antipodal to the actual objective of reducing unwanted pregnancy, and therefore abortion.

As I've already shared with you, I've worked with one of my professors in studying how the U.S. foreign policy designed to discourage abortions actually increases them. A doctoral student published the paper for her dissertation, but I was one of the undergrad researchers who contributed. Now my research from South Africa is being used as part of the analysis for illegal, self-managed abortions in the United States. Online searches about self-induced abortion began to rise sharply in 2011 when there was an upswing in state restrictions on legal abortion. The internet searches are actually the most common in states with stringent restrictions and the most vehement public opposition to abortion.

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I admit I used to be ignorant about the facts about abortion, on account of growing up listening to the Republican propaganda about it. I'm very much pro-life. Very much. But was ignorant about how the Republican policies while claiming to be pro-life aren't at all. Ignorant about Planned Parenthood, ignorant about how to making abortion illegal wouldn't do much of a diddly dang to lower abortion rates.
Glad to have encountered some honesty from folks like you 2 early enough on to not carry on with that ignorance, actually be in support of the candidates who are truly pro-life not just claiming to be anti-abortion. Wish your posts would be pinned to the top of threads about abortion. Folks need to read what you've written.

Rev Life said:

Overturning Roe v. Wade is undoubtedly more important than reforming our healthcare system.

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Overturning Roe won't make abortion illegal nationwide. It will only leave the legality of abortion up to the states. Already, even with Roe still in force, 13 states have passed laws protecting abortion rights. Women intent on terminating a pregnancy, and who have the means, will go to another state. The only way to criminalize abortion nationwide is with a Constitutional amendment. Which requires ratification by 38 states. And would seem to be impossible if 13 state legislatures remain firmly pro-choice.

Only six states have 'abortion trigger laws' that would ban abortion if SCOTUS overturned Roe v Wade.

No amendment could ever pass muster to terminate abortion. And if it were, the GOP would be destroyed in the next election.

So, now that we’ve established that a) Trump doesn’t have the power to ban abortion in the first place, and b) his policy faithfully executed would ultimately increase the number of abortions nationwide, has anyone who originally voted “yes” on the OP’s poll changed their mind?

gaara4158 said:

So, now that we’ve established that a) Trump doesn’t have the power to ban abortion in the first place, and b) his policy faithfully executed would ultimately increase the number of abortions nationwide, has anyone who originally voted “yes” on the OP’s poll changed their mind?

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To a degree, voting for Donald Trump does depend on his opposition. But if I truly believed Trump was the better candidate than his opponent, I honestly would have to leave this country. From an ethical standpoint, I could not live in a nation where the leadership choices are so loathsome.

brinny said: ↑
The "least of these" is the most helpless, without a voice to defend themselves, headed for "death", as is written in Isaiah.

Defending and speaking up for those without a voice is preventing innocent bloodshed, just as it was in the Holocaust. There are still the equivalent of the "least of these" headed for death, and "innocent bloodshed". Those who defend these "least of these" are not evil. We are, perhaps "flawed", but are the antithesis of anything "evil", this includes Trump, who is fighting for, and defending the "least of these".

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ViaCrucis said:

I see no reason to continue this conversation. Enjoy your day.

-CryptoLutheran

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Thank you. You enjoy your day as well.

gaara4158 said:

So, now that we’ve established that a) Trump doesn’t have the power to ban abortion in the first place, and b) his policy faithfully executed would ultimately increase the number of abortions nationwide, has anyone who originally voted “yes” on the OP’s poll changed their mind?

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That's a mistake. While the President cannot simply rule abortions illegal, he can--and in the case of this president did--take steps that significantly impede the practice without affecting the legality of abortion.

Voting for Trump leads to more abortions.

He has done nothing to improve the abortion situation.

jayem said:

Overturning Roe won't make abortion illegal nationwide. It will only leave the legality of abortion up to the states. Already, even with Roe still in force, 13 states have passed laws protecting abortion rights. Women intent on terminating a pregnancy, and who have the means, will go to another state. The only way to criminalize abortion nationwide is with a Constitutional amendment. Which requires ratification by 38 states. And would seem to be impossible if 13 state legislatures remain firmly pro-choice.

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It's an embarrassment how many fully grown folks do not understand this. I admit I used to think that as well, that if Roe v Wade was overturned, abortion would instantly be made illegal. That if abortion was illegal then it meant it wouldn't happen. Got disabused of that ignorance with facts early enough on in life, thankfully.

Go Braves said:

It's an embarrassment how many fully grown folks do not understand this. I admit I used to think that as well, that if Roe v Wade was overturned, abortion would instantly be made illegal. That if abortion was illegal then it meant it wouldn't happen. Got disabused of that ignorance with facts early enough on in life, thankfully.

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It is disconcerting how many Americans are uninformed on how their government works. Do schools not teach civics anymore? When I was in school (mid-60s) half a year of civics and half a year of geography was a requirement in the 9th grade. And it was a rigorous course. Over 4 and a half months, we studied the Constitution literally sentence by sentence--every article, and all the amendments. Not to mention, we had to memorize the Preamble, and write it word for word on the final exam, including every capitalized noun and every punctuation mark. I remember being assigned on a Friday to write a report on whether the Electoral College was beneficial or detrimental, and how it might be modified. The report was due the following Monday. I wonder if law students today study the Constitution in the same depth that we 9th graders did in public school back then.

jayem said:

It is disconcerting how many Americans are uninformed on how their government works. Do schools not teach civics anymore? When I was in school (mid-60s) half a year of civics and half a year of geography was a requirement in the 9th grade. And it was a rigorous course. Over 4 and a half months, we studied the Constitution literally sentence by sentence--every article, and all the amendments. Not to mention, we had to memorize the Preamble, and write it word for word on the final exam, including every capitalized noun and every punctuation mark. I remember being assigned on a Friday to write a report on whether the Electoral College was beneficial or detrimental, and how it might be modified. The report was due the following Monday. I wonder if law students today study the Constitution in the same depth that we 9th graders did in public school back then.

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It's disconcerting how many Americans listen to Fox News and Republicans on Twitter instead of remembering what they were taught in their HS civics education.

Oh, I had a strong HS education. I just also was a product of the Deep South where from early on it was ingrained that you had to vote Republican to overrule Roe v Wade, "end the murdering of babies." I'm glad I got straightened out on the facts early on, vote accordingly.

Go Braves said:

It's disconcerting how many Americans listen to Fox News and Republicans on Twitter instead of remembering what they were taught in their HS civics education.

Oh, I had a strong HS education. I just also was a product of the Deep South where from early on it was ingrained that you had to vote Republican to overrule Roe v Wade, "end the murdering of babies." I'm glad I got straightened out on the facts early on, vote accordingly.

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Small world. I'm a southerner myself. Born and bred in GA actually. (I see you're a Braves fan. I can relate.) My home town is Savannah. Where we like to think of ourselves as the cultivated, refined, genteel southerners. And definitely not the R-word variety. Abortion was not on the radar in the early-mid 60s. The issue was racial integration. Which as I recall, went rather smoothly in Chatham County. The first black students were in some of my 10th grade classes. And I really can't remember any major incidents or problems. In fact, my HS's best football player was a black guy, who was very popular. But Savannah was always somewhat more liberal than other parts of the state. And was always kind of a party town. Have you heard the joke: If you awaken from a coma in GA, you'll know where you are by the first question you're asked. In Atlanta, they ask "How much money do you make." In Macon, they ask "Where do you go to church?" And in Savannah, they ask "What'll you have to drink."

Albion said:

That's a mistake. While the President cannot simply rule abortions illegal, he can--and in the case of this president did--take steps that significantly impede the practice without affecting the legality of abortion.

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It impedes the practice being done above board. It does not actually impede it from happening.

Trump has only redirected the sequence and increased the number of abortions.

gaara4158 said:

It impedes the practice being done above board. It does not actually impede it from happening.

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This. This. This. This. This. Emphasis needed. Not only does making abortion illegal fail to impede abortions from taking place, it generates a boon of illegal abortions. A root cause of the fallacy that defunding and forcing the shuttering of abortion clinics will lead to fewer abortions is a misunderstanding about how abortions are most frequently induced in modern-day. Many erroneously think that they are all surgical procedures that need to be performed in a clinic, and therefore if abortions clinics are closed, it won't be possible to attain them. But as I'm sure you know, most abortions are early enough that oral medication is used, pills that can be taken at home. These pills are obtainable on the black market now, from online international pharmacies, or dashes across the border to Mexico, since they have other legitimate medical usages. I've been prescribed one, Cytotec, which is used to treat and prevent stomach ulcers. Another is commonly given to people undergoing chemotherapy or who have autoimmune conditions.

As abortion laws in America have become increasingly restrictive since the rise of the Tea Party in the early 2010s, and more clinics have closed so the nearest one can be a cumbersomely long distance away, the rise in illegally obtained abortifacients have spiked. That in turn has actually lead to more illegal abortions even in states where the legality is not under any threat. Women in states like Mississippi quietly share about their experiences on Snapchat or private forums, and disclose the costs. Women in states like California then read them and find out that it costs substantially less to have an illegal abortion than a legal one, and chose the former. I mean, the wholesale cost in the developing world is about 0.36 to 2.00 USD per dose of Cytotec / Misoprostol, and if prescribed at a legal abortion clinic in the United States it cost several hundred dollars. Mifepristone is also expensive outside of the US but very pricey in it. Plus there are generally additional costs involved in going to a clinic and being legally prescription the medication. The other factor is that many girls and women are terrified of being confronted and harassed by protesters at clinics, so they would rather discreetly receive the pills and have a self-managed abortion.

Prior to 2016 foreign organizations that had given assistance to women seeking abortions in countries where it was prohibited often refused to give it to Americans because the U.S. is notoriously litigious. Since the election of Trump and the skyrocketing anxiety and misinformation about what would happen if Roe v Wade were overturned, more have changed course, which is ironic considering that many voters specifically state they chose him because they wanted him to have nominate pro-life justices to the Supreme Court. It's not as easy to obtain the medications as it is for underage college students to get alcohol and marijuana, but it's definitely not that difficult anymore either. He has systematically taken actions that increase unwanted pregnancies, which have the direct effect of leading to more girls and women seeking abortions. And as an additional irony, some of his most ardent supporters actively attempt to demonize attempts that strive towards the precise opposite - preventing unwanted pregnancies and therefore preventing abortions, while soapboxing about their moral superiority.

Sorry for the post lacking brevity - too sleepy to be concise - and I'm writing this to you but not really for you because I think nothing above is anything you didn't already know.