Struggles with Calvinism

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

To get Servetus to recant.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
You, twin, assume that posters here "should have done" other than we did, and that the OP "should have posted elsewhere". She can still "make up her own mind" on the issues.

Yes she can. Her questions were about Calvinism and what did she get? Posters calling Calvinism heresy, a doctrine from Hell and every other foul thing that they can imagine. She got red herrings, straw men and misunderstanding of what Calvinsts actually believe. She didn't ask for a debate but help to better understand.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Now you assume, twin, that I have NOT READ THE HISTORY OF THE SERVETUS INCIDENT.

I have read it, I have posted in this thread about my awareness that Calvin wanted beheading rather than burning. I am aware that Calvin tried to get Server is to recant

Then why continue with the red herring argument? It has nothing to do with Calvinist beliefs. When you can't out argue your opponent in debate you fall back to attacking the man. When I say "you" I mean those who like to debate Calvinsts not you in particular.

His student · Nov 12, 2019

twin1954 said:
Ephesians 1:8-11 (KJV) 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
You can take the words "all things" as far as you want.

His student said: ↑

I'm a little old fashioned I guess.
But I take "all things" to mean exactly that - NO exceptions.

twin1954 said:
So how do you interpret the verses?

First of all - just as I said -- "all things" including His allowing us to choose sin.

For the sake of heading off any straw men that may be used by some - note that I said that He allowed us to chose to sin. He neither authored the sin or forced it on anyone.

But all things that happen are in some sense His will. Note again for the false accusers - I said in "some sense". He decreed that those sins occur in history. But He did not Himself author them.

The concept of the absolute and permissive wills of God is common to the theology of both Calvinists and non Calvinists alike.

The existence of sin in God's creation in spite of His holiness is a problem to be considered by all. Anyone saying that it only applies to Calvinism is simply whistling through a graveyard. Mumbling some vague platitude about free will does not answer the problem.

Unlike many Calvinists seem to be - I am not at all reluctant to use the term "allowed sin to occur" - even though I believe in the complete sovereignty of God in all that occurs in His creation.

Everything that He either does directly or "allows" to occur is for a good purpose even if we can't see it right now.

We have examples in scripture concerning how this can be. Among them - the crucifixion of God's Son by evil men and the selling of Joseph into slavery. Both are evil and yet both were good from the viewpoint of God's overall plan.

All we can do as people of faith is apply those lessons from the scriptures to other calamities such as the falling of the tower at Siloam on men and even the Holocaust.

When it comes to things like the Holocaust it seems to me that as believers we have 3 choices.

1. We can accept that all things, even hideous things, will be shown to have been for the overall good that God intends. Along with that we can affirm that He is not the author of sin even if He does decree that it be allowed to happen.

2. We can hate God in view of His sovereignty in these evil matters and rail against Him.

3. Or we can do as many here in the forum do. We can simply take God off His throne in our theology and deny that God had any part in it.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I do not deny the Trinity. 1st John 5:7 is a disputed verse by some, but does spell it out clearly. Oneness Pentecostals and Trinitarians do deny the Trinity, they are wrong, but do not deserve execution because of their beliefs, as Calvin had Servetus executed.

You obviously missed or conveniently ignored my point. You ask for Scriptures that spell out certain arguments knowing that they come from the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. As though that if there isn't a verse or two that clearly says it that it can't be true.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

It is not a "red herring" to bring up a piece of history.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

His student said:
His student said: ↑

I'm a little old fashioned I guess.
But I take "all things" to mean exactly that - NO exceptions.

First of all - just as I said -- "all things" including His allowing us to choose sin.

For the sake of heading off any straw men that may be used by some - note that I said that He allowed us to chose to sin. He neither authored the sin or forced it on anyone.

But all things that happen are in some sense His will. Note again for the false accusers - I said in "some sense". He decreed that those sins occur in history. But He did not Himself author them.

The concept of the absolute and permissive wills of God is common to the theology of both Calvinists and non Calvinists alike.

The existence of sin in God's creation in spite of His holiness is a problem to be considered by all. Anyone saying that it only applies to Calvinism is simply whistling through a graveyard. Mumbling some vague platitude about free will does not answer the problem.

Unlike many Calvinists seem to be - I am not at all reluctant to use the term "allowed sin to occur" - even though I believe in the complete sovereignty of God in all that occurs in His creation.

Everything that He either does directly or "allows" to occur is for a good purpose even if we can't see it right now.

We have examples in scripture concerning how this can be. Among them - the crucifixion of God's Son by evil men and the selling of Joseph into slavery. Both are evil and yet both were good from the viewpoint of God's overall plan.

All we can do as people of faith is apply those lessons from the scriptures to other calamities such as the falling of the tower at Siloam on men and even the Holocaust.

When it comes to things like the Holocaust it seems to me that as believers we have 3 choices.

1. We can accept that all things, even hideous things, will be shown to have been for the overall good that God intends. Along with that we can affirm that He is not the author of sin even if He does decree that it be allowed to happen.

2. We can hate God in view of His sovereignty in these evil matters and rail against Him.

3. Or we can do as many here in the forum do. We can simply take God off His throne in our theology and deny that God had any part in it.

I would say that He purposed that sin enter His Creation yet did not cause it. You can say allowed if you wish though. Your post here I can agree with. At least you try to deal honestly with these things. I commend you for it.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
It is not a "red herring" to bring up a piece of history.

It is when it has nothing to do with the arguments at hand. Bringing up Servetus has nothing to do with the teachings of Calvinism. It is a red herring to take the focus from the actual arguments and trying to make Calvinsts look bad because of the man that it is named after. It is an attempt to poison the well against Calvinsts.

His student · Nov 12, 2019

twin1954 said:
I would say that He purposed that sin enter His Creation yet did not cause it. You can say allowed if you wish though. Your post here I can agree with. At least you try to deal honestly with these things. I commend you for it.

Decreed for a particular purpose. I agree with that.

My way of dealing with it theologically is to say, among other things:

"He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works ALL things after the counsel of His will," Ephesians 1:9-11

AND

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Many will take exception to me quoting the Westminster Confession. But I see no reason to re invent the wheel when it comes to summing up this mystery.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

I have never called Calvinism a "heresy" - to me, a heresy is incorrect teaching about the nature(s), person, deity and pre-existence of Christ.

I have called Calvinism a doctrine from hell, and still do.

I don't get into whether or not Calvin "murdered" Servetus, I said he had him executed. It was not "murder" in the context of the times. Servetus was a heretic, his death was sought by Potestants and Catholics alike.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

Did Luther, Melancthon, or other reformers besides Calvin have anybody executed? I don't know, Zwingli died sword-in-hand on a battlefield.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

Twin, your opinion of red herrings and poisoning the well is just YOUR OPINION.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I have never called Calvinism a "heresy" - to me, a heresy is incorrect teaching about the nature(s), person, deity and pre-existence of Christ.

I have called Calvinism a doctrine from hell, and still do.

I don't get into whether or not Calvin "murdered" Servetus, I said he had him executed. It was not "murder" in the context of the times. Servetus was a heretic, his death was sought by Potestants and Catholics alike.

I could say the same about free will theology. But I do try to not engage in polemics. It serves no real purpose.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Did Luther, Melancthon, or other reformers besides Calvin have anybody executed? I don't know, Zwingli died sword-in-hand on a battlefield.

Luther and Melancthon killed Anabaptists by the score. I haven't read much on Zwingli so I cannot say.

His student · Nov 12, 2019

Butch5 said:
Where do you see that in the passage from Isaiah?

That is so like what I have seen from you in the past.

What a silly cop out post. It's right up there with - "Show me a passage that says 'God decrees all things that take place'."

Please note what I said.

His student said: ↑
......... According to the scriptures:

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

I guess God unchangeably ordains what all persons post in this thread, if what some Calvinist confessions allege is true, so no use saying what we posters "should have done" or where the OP should have posted.

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Twin, your opinion of red herrings and poisoning the well is just YOUR OPINION.

Not really. They are two logical fallacies delineated in every book on logic. They are very commonly used especially in political debate.

Men resort to these fallacies because they rationalize rather than thinking logically.

Tra Phull · Nov 12, 2019

Perhaps God ORDAINS every typo or autocorrect I post.

Twin, I did not know about Luther and Melancthon"killing Anabaptists by the score".
Document if you want.

NeedyFollower · Nov 12, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

We see through a glass darkly . Let your niece know that God has demonstrated His love in the most sacrificial way that is possible . He gave , He justified . He bore our sin and became sin ( I know that you know all of this but it is just a reminder of God's demonstration of love . ) I do not fully understand election but I think it was meant to humble us and to through ourselves on God's mercy and to trust in Him , not in ourselves . ( For God gives grace to the humble but is opposed to the proud . )

twin1954 · Nov 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I guess God unchangeably ordains what all persons post in this thread, if what some Calvinist confessions allege is true, so no use saying what we posters "should have done" or where the OP should have posted.

True. But that doesn't mitigate our responsibility to help her rather than tearing each other down. We have done her a disservice.

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