atheists are psychologically healthier than agnostics

dzheremi

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Sorry, I'm a little surprised about that too.. lol.

Eh, no court would convict you...it's like poison oak...you scratch it once and it might feel good for a few seconds, but then before you know it it's spread everywhere and you wish you could take back having touched it at all! :D

No need to get so defensive.

Who's getting defensive? I'm pointing out how silly it is to rail against religion on the one hand, while on the other fulfill that same drive (that the atheist claims not to have) with a bunch of stargazing mumbo-jumbo cribbed from actual scientists who probably never intended that their scientific pursuits be made into a new quasi-religion.

I don't hate religion with a passion, and I don't view you as less for being a theist. Relax man. :)

Hmm? I wasn't referring to you, but to a composite of several people I know in real life who all exhibit this kind of stance to varying degrees.

I somewhat agree with your sentiments. Atheists who try to be "spiritual". Might be nice, but most of it is hollow. As far as Carl Sagan I think he just wanted to get people more interested in science and environmentalism.

Which is a fine goal. I hope my post didn't come off as dumping on Sagan. I liked Cosmos too, I just find it weird that there is a certain kind of atheist that has this sort of attachment to it or to what they make of science more generally, especially since if you suggest to those people that they appear to have a religious-type devotion to it, they'll look at you like you have an arm growing out of your back, apparently completely unaware of the tone and character of their devotion. "What do you mean? I'm an atheist! Religion is dumb!" (five seconds later) "Did you see my new Siberian Shaman's drum? Isn't it so cool?" Yeah...way cool. :scratch:
 
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FireDragon76

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Maybe I can become psychologically healthy if I change my CF religion label to atheist? ;)

Not likely.

Don't get obsessed with labels or putting yourself in some kind of box. You aren't religious, why is it so important? There are, after all, plenty of apatheists.

But perhaps you really do care about these big questions? In which case, it might be a mistake to rush to try to pin yourself down. That's not necessarily a sign of weakness or lack of mental health.
 
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Zoness

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Maybe I can become psychologically healthy if I change my CF religion label to atheist? ;)

Not likely.

Don't get obsessed with labels or putting yourself in some kind of box. You aren't religious, why is it so important? There are, after all, plenty of apatheists.

But perhaps you really do care about these big questions? In which case, it might be a mistake to rush to try to pin yourself down. That's not necessarily a sign of weakness or lack of mental health.

You're free to change labels, it might be worth it but I do also agree with Fire Dragon. I've been doing most of my religious argumentation on Discord which many servers allow you to self assign many philsophy and religion roles like a sort of personal tag cloud. The problem is it turns into a sort of obsession as you still down to finer and finer lines and then you start shaping your perception in terms of labels. I've done it a ton with my Paganism and it mostly brings internal conflict because I love labeling and categorizing.

At any rate it's not a magic bullet but do what you want!
 
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FireDragon76

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Eh, no court would convict you...it's like poison oak...you scratch it once and it might feel good for a few seconds, but then before you know it it's spread everywhere and you wish you could take back having touched it at all! :D



Who's getting defensive? I'm pointing out how silly it is to rail against religion on the one hand, while on the other fulfill that same drive (that the atheist claims not to have) with a bunch of stargazing mumbo-jumbo cribbed from actual scientists who probably never intended that their scientific pursuits be made into a new quasi-religion.



Hmm? I wasn't referring to you, but to a composite of several people I know in real life who all exhibit this kind of stance to varying degrees.



Which is a fine goal. I hope my post didn't come off as dumping on Sagan. I liked Cosmos too, I just find it weird that there is a certain kind of atheist that has this sort of attachment to it or to what they make of science more generally, especially since if you suggest to those people that they appear to have a religious-type devotion to it, they'll look at you like you have an arm growing out of your back, apparently completely unaware of the tone and character of their devotion. "What do you mean? I'm an atheist! Religion is dumb!" (five seconds later) "Did you see my new Siberian Shaman's drum? Isn't it so cool?" Yeah...way cool. :scratch:

Why can't you understand what's going on here? Alot of people like some of the sentiments you might associate with religion, but what they don't like is the dogmatism and authoritarianism.
 
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dzheremi

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Why can't you understand what's going on here? Alot of people like some of the sentiments you might associate with religion, but what they don't like is the dogmatism and authoritarianism.

I do understand that, I just don't care. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you don't want to be religious, you don't have to be. Just as you don't have to make a 'non-religious' Goldilocks religion out of disparate scraps of Carl Sagan, Martin Heidegger (or insert your favorite philosopher here), Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Native American spirituality, your political leanings, and 'atheism'.

But if you do, I'm going to laugh at it.
 
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FireDragon76

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I do understand that, I just don't care. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you don't want to be religious, you don't have to be. Just you don't have to make a 'non-religious' Goldilocks religion out of disparate scraps of Carl Sagan, Martin Heidegger (or insert your favorite philosopher here), Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Native American spirituality, your political leanings, and 'atheism'.

But if you do, I'm going to laugh at it.

I think what matters in the end is the content of ones character. It's a pity you think in order to be respectable, something must be old and have some kind of institutional package.
 
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dzheremi

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That would be a pity, but that's not what I think. That's what you think I think. I judge religions based on their content, not whether or not they are old and institutionalized. Islam is old and institutionalized, and I don't respect that religion at all.

Anyway, about atheists' and agnostics' mental health... :rolleyes:
 
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FireDragon76

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That would be a pity, but that's not what I think. That's what you think I think. I judge religions based on their content,

How about not implying that people are fools just because they have non-traditional beliefs?
 
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dzheremi

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How about not implying that people are fools just because they have non-traditional beliefs?

I'm not implying anything about people.

Again, these are my friends' beliefs and practices I'm satirizing. They know I think their beliefs are ridiculous, just like I know they think mine are ridiculous. Adults can handle this,
 
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I've seen this a lot with atheists I know. They hate religion with a passion and think I'm an idiot for believing in God and having a religion (though they're usually pretty nice about it, cos they're my friends and relatives), but then they talk about Carl Sagan's Cosmos with a downright religious tone: "it changed my life", "it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen", "I used part of it as the basis for the eulogy at my dad's funeral" (no, I'm not exaggerating; a friend's boyfriend did that), etc. They practically cry at the 'beauty of the universe' or whatever.
This made me think of Richard Dawkins who writes almost mystically on the diversity of life, while essentially asserting it is meaningless.

The way I see it, if you don't assert some form of metaphysical meaning, then you either have to create your own meaning in a Nietzsche-esce way or have to adopt some other existential strategy. But if there is no metaphysical meaning, then that is functionally the same as 'creating your own', and existential strategies of Distraction, Suicide, or Absurdity are largely ignoring the problem. It seems when humans look at the world, they can't help but ascribe meaning - so it is decidedly odd that those that supposedly champion the reason of man and his works, would reject such a basic intuition that phenomena actually mean something.

It makes me think of someone glorying in the beauty of the calligraphy and the quality of the paper, but neglecting to read the text itself.
 
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That's one reason in a thread discussing transgenderism, I take issue with some atheists who seem to suggest that biology = identity. There's far too many unquestioned metaphysical assumptions buried in there, there's not enough healthy agnosticism.
A lot here hinges on semantics. Transgenderism defines gender differently, as a social construct bound to conceptualisation of identity; others define gender as identity from biological sex, and don't markedly differentiate the meanings thereof.

If people are fighting over things, but they don't even agree what those terms mean, then largely it is moot. Psychiatry defines something as normal based on Socio-Cultural norms, so that a Pentacostal preacher speaking in tongues is normal; but if I spout jibberish, it wouldn't be. Science assumes normality based on bell-curves of spectra of phenomena, than derive inductive Generalities from these specific instances. If you are asserting human ability to identify individually, you'll fall foul of both of these - as inevitably there will be some that are at the ends of these bell-curves or are outliers. However, as Transgenderism has become more socially acceptable, many in Psychiatry dropped its status as Gender Identity Disorder due to its newfound socio-cultural position. Trying to assert a scientific gender basis is similar, as it depends where and in what way, we categorise that bell-curve of human activity on the essentially most prevalent binary categories based on biological sex expressed.

Either we must generalise humanity, or assert humanity too complex. Any generalisation is by nature socio-cultural as much as observational. This is why there are 72 genders and counting being declared by some, while others deny anything beyond the 2 that almost all people identify as one of. The argument boils down to an intrinsic versus extrinsic properties of our observations. It perhaps has to do with positivism vs post-positivism, too. If the baseline axioms and thoughtform differ so radically, agreement is functionally impossible, and conflict inevitable when both sides try and enforce an orthodoxy against the heretics.

I am a doctor, which colours my world to some extent. I don't see Transgenders thriving, I don't see the non-religious thriving. By standard parameters to define health, such as morbidity, mortality, health-seeking behaviour, 30 day follow ups, etc. these things are clearly deleterious to humans. You can argue against the parameters, you can argue that society needs to alter to change this; but based on what is currently on the ground, these are things that are conducive to pathology on medical grounds. Anecdote doesn't change this, or exceptions that prove the rule (akin to smoking helping for ulcerative colitis or post operative nausea, but otherwise very unhealthy indeed). Medically, these are risk-factors for poorer mental and physical health - far more so with the sky-high suicide rates for transgenders.
 
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FireDragon76

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A lot here hinges on semantics. Transgenderism defines gender differently, as a social construct bound to conceptualisation of identity; others define gender as identity from biological sex, and don't markedly differentiate the meanings thereof.

If people are fighting over things, but they don't even agree what those terms mean, then largely it is moot. Psychiatry defines something as normal based on Socio-Cultural norms, so that a Pentacostal preacher speaking in tongues is normal; but if I spout jibberish, it wouldn't be. Science assumes normality based on bell-curves of spectra of phenomena, than derive inductive Generalities from these specific instances. If you are asserting human ability to identify individually, you'll fall foul of both of these - as inevitably there will be some that are at the ends of these bell-curves or are outliers. However, as Transgenderism has become more socially acceptable, many in Psychiatry dropped its status as Gender Identity Disorder due to its newfound socio-cultural position. Trying to assert a scientific gender basis is similar, as it depends where and in what way, we categorise that bell-curve of human activity on the essentially most prevalent binary categories based on biological sex expressed.

Either we must generalise humanity, or assert humanity too complex. Any generalisation is by nature socio-cultural as much as observational. This is why there are 72 genders and counting being declared by some, while others deny anything beyond the 2 that almost all people identify as one of. The argument boils down to an intrinsic versus extrinsic properties of our observations. It perhaps has to do with positivism vs post-positivism, too. If the baseline axioms and thoughtform differ so radically, agreement is functionally impossible, and conflict inevitable when both sides try and enforce an orthodoxy against the heretics.

I am a doctor, which colours my world to some extent. I don't see Transgenders thriving, I don't see the non-religious thriving. By standard parameters to define health, such as morbidity, mortality, health-seeking behaviour, 30 day follow ups, etc. these things are clearly deleterious to humans. You can argue against the parameters, you can argue that society needs to alter to change this; but based on what is currently on the ground, these are things that are conducive to pathology on medical grounds. Anecdote doesn't change this, or exceptions that prove the rule (akin to smoking helping for ulcerative colitis or post operative nausea, but otherwise very unhealthy indeed). Medically, these are risk-factors for poorer mental and physical health - far more so with the sky-high suicide rates for transgenders.

I don't believe in generalizing humanity in that manner. There is a great deal of diversity in what we term humanity. Life is more difficult for some people, obviously, but I think the duty of doctors is to alleviate suffering, not to uphold a particular conceptualization of the natural order.
 
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I don't believe in generalizing humanity in that manner. There is a great deal of diversity in what we term humanity. Life is more difficult for some people, obviously, but I think the duty of doctors is to alleviate suffering, not to uphold a particular conceptualization of the natural order.
I agree doctors aren't supposed to uphold a particular conceptualisation of the natural order a priori. To practice Medicine, one must generalise though: Some people can tolerate high salt diets quite well, some smokers can live to 90 without issue - but in the majority of cases, this will be bad for your health and cut a few years off. Simply put, we must create an hypothetical Average Man, with average anatomy and average ranges of electrolytes and such. In this manner, we can pick up when someone deviates from this basic norm - then, if such a deviation is coupled to an obviously undesirable outcome, such as death or disability or decline of function, we can label it pathological or unhealthy, and then tailor treatments in order to alleviate suffering. Some people will be fine with aberrant findings, like physiological bradycardia, but we must play average to see where to look.

So for instance, we see high salt diets cause high blood pressure, which we can conclusively tie to more myocardial infarction and stroke; thus we can advise people against high salt intake, especially if already having high blood pressure. Doesn't mean it will make a difference in this person, but for the average one it will. This aetiology can become quite complex. It is not that we are against salt, but we can tie it to an objectively undesirable outcome.

Here we have population groups with obviously undesirable outcomes by any measure - lower life expectancy, poorer levels of physiological functioning, higher suicide rates - than their peers with similar diet and socio-economic circumstances; Yet I haven't touched idealogy or Science, but merely looked at Empiric Evidence. These are obviously unhealthy in some way therefore, if not perhaps pathologic processes. Now the question is whether this is an environmental process or maladaptive or an innate one. So far no intervention has shown promise to alleviate this suffering, the higher burden of obviously undesirable outcomes, in these populations. In certain cases, such as Transgenders and gender reassignment surgery, we see subjective reports of improved mood, but no drop in suicidality - at the price of complex elective surgery, that bears very high risk of morbidity and mortality itself; or these hormonal treatments that increase cardiovascular risk, and have been shown to dramatically cut life expectancy. The number to treat, or risk/benefit stratification is not in its favour. With Atheism there are no such strategies that I am aware of, to close the health gap to their religious peers, though. Anecdotal cases may do 'better' on some criteria, as some people with inappropriate sodium secretion may do better on high salt diets, but this doesn't change the average Ideal.

Regardless, for doctors to be able to alleviate suffering at all, it means generalising a 'healthy range' for things. Without touching idealogy, by looking at the most basic factors of mortality and morbidity, these populations are at higher risk. There is an old adage in Medicine of 'treating the patient, not the xray or blood results', but as I said, I don't see much 'thriving' because of it; more in spite of, if at all. Being asked to ignore the plain evidence in front of us, necessarily averaged out over the population in general, is ignoring suffering. It is ignoring a potential factor in human suffering that we may be able to alleviate by adressing, simply to uphold a specific conceptualisation of the Natural Order and ideology. You can disbelieve in generalising "in that manner", but how are we supposed to decide when we may or may not generalise, if the end result can be shown on mortality statistics? The high suicide rates of Transgenders scream out for intervention strategies outside of ineffective treatment modalities of pandering to it or gender-reassignment for instance, and just ignoring this is highly unethical and against medical principles of beneficence.

Simply asserting doctors should alleviate suffering, and the necessity of determining what is or is not associated with said suffering, suggests investigating the 'great deal of diversity in humanity' of necessity. If not, than that would be upholding a priori conceptualisations of what constitutes suffering and what we are supposed to be treating or not. After all, disagreeing with Communism was termed a form of Schizophrenia in the Soviet Union on purely idealogical grounds, so Medicine is not immune - one should stick to what is Evidence-based.
 
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I agree doctors aren't supposed to uphold a particular conceptualisation of the natural order a priori. To practice Medicine, one must generalise though: Some people can tolerate high salt diets quite well, some smokers can live to 90 without issue - but in the majority of cases, this will be bad for your health and cut a few years off. Simply put, we must create an hypothetical Average Man, with average anatomy and average ranges of electrolytes and such. In this manner, we can pick up when someone deviates from this basic norm - then, if such a deviation is coupled to an obviously undesirable outcome, such as death or disability or decline of function, we can label it pathological or unhealthy, and then taylor treatments in order to alleviate suffering. Some people will be fine with aberrant findings, like physiological bradycardia, but we must play average to see where to look.

So for instance, we see high salt diets cause high blood pressure, which we can conclusively tie to more myocardial infarction and stroke; thus we can advise people against high salt intake, especially if already having high blood pressure. Doesn't mean it will make a difference in this person, but for the average one it will. This aetiology can become quite complex. It is not that we are against salt, but we can tie it to an objectively undesirable outcome.

Here we have population groups with obviously undesirable outcomes by any measure - lower life expectancy, poorer levels of physiological functioning, higher suicide rates - than their peers with similar diet and socio-economic circumstances; Yet I haven't touched idealogy or Science, but merely looked at Empiric Evidence. These are obviously unhealthy in some way therefore, if not perhaps pathologic processes. Now the question is whether this is an environmental process or maladaptive or an innate one. So far no intervention has shown promise to alleviate this suffering, the higher burden of obviously undesirable outcomes, in these populations. In certain cases, such as Transgenders and gender reassignment surgery, we see subjective reports of improved mood, but no drop in suicidality - at the price of complex elective surgery, that bears very high risk of morbidity and mortality itself; or these hormonal treatments that increase cardiovascular risk, and have been shown to dramatically cut life expectancy. The number to treat, or risk/benefit stratefication is not in its favour. With Atheism there are no such strategies that I am aware of, to close the health gap to their religious peers, though. Anecdotal cases may do 'better' on some criteria, as some people with inappropriate sodium secretion may do better on high salt diets, but this doesn't change the average Ideal.

Regardless, for doctors to be able to alleviate suffering at all, it means generalising a 'healthy range' for things. Without touching idealogy, by looking at the most basic factors of mortality and morbidity, these populations are at higher risk. There is an old adage in Medicine of 'treating the pasient, not the xray or blood results', but as I said, I don't see much 'thriving' because of it; more in spite of, if at all. Being asked to ignore the plain evidence in front of us, necessarily averaged out over the population in general, is ignoring suffering. It is ignoring a potential factor in human suffering that we may be able to alleviate by adressing, simply to uphold a specific conceptualisation of the Natural Order and ideology. You can disbelieve in generalising "in that manner", but how are we supposed to decide when we may or may not generalise, if the end result can be shown on mortality statistics? The high suicide rates of Transgenders scream out for intervention strategies outside of ineffective treatment modalities of pandering to it or gender-reassignment for instance, and just ignoring this is highly unethical and against medical principles of beneficence.

Why is transsexualism accepted in some cultures, then, like Native American cultures or in Thailand? This really has to do with different cultures constructing gender differently, and having different narratives about gender.

The increased suicidality of transpeople can be explained by being a minority group. This isn't unique to being trans, but can happen when any minority faces oppression or is an outrgroup. Gays also have increased rates of suicide, as do rural white men in the US.
 
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Why is transsexualism accepted in some cultures, then, like Native American cultures or in Thailand? This really has to do with different cultures constructing gender differently, and having different narratives about gender.
Irrelevant to my argument. Some cultures eat semi-poisonous substances, or have unhealthy diets, or stick cow-dung on infants, or refuse immunisation, or practice blood-letting. Doesn't mean it is therefore healthy just because accepted, nor that such factors' negative outcomes are therefore merely cultural when we can evidentially show this increases morbidity and mortality.

I don't know if there are statistics on transsexualism and health outcomes for those populations, but if there are, I am pretty sure we would have heard of them if they were positive or neutral in this heated debate nowadays.
 
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Irrelevant to my argument. Some cultures eat semi-poisonous substances, or have unhealthy diets, or stick cow-dung on infants, or refuse immunisation, or practice blood-letting. Doesn't mean it is therefore healthy just because accepted, nor that such factors' negative outcomes are therefore merely cultural when we can evidentially show this increases morbidity and mortality.

I don't see being a kathoey or wintu as comparable. They function within their societies, and while they may not necessarily have a high status, they are not considered outcasts in the way that some conservative Christians regard transsexuals.

I don't know if there are statistics on transsexualism and health outcomes for those populations, but if there are, I am pretty sure we would have heard of them if they were positive or neutral in this heated debate nowadays.

Why? Most people in the English speaking world aren't familiar with those cultures, nor would they be able to easily understand them.
 
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I don't see being a kathoey or wintu as comparable. They function within their societies, and while they may not necessarily have a high status, they are not considered outcasts in the way that some conservative Christians regard transsexuals.
All these others are also normative in their society, so they are comparable. Just because a situation functions in some way, does not make it healthy or the ideal circumstances.

Anyway, no connection between status and poor health outcomes have been demonstrated in transsexuals. So whether they are outcasts or not, they still have high incidence of suicide; as Nordic studies indicate where longer periods of affirmation and gender reassignment has been ongoing, yet suicidality is unchanged. Atheism has poorer outcomes, yet in certain circles or societies is lauded, for instance, as well.

Why? Most people in the English speaking world aren't familiar with those cultures, nor would they be able to easily understand them.
Because it would then be evidence that negative outcomes consistently shown associated with transsexualism in Medical studies would be due to our failure to affirm them, or would be a societal failure. It would have eloquently supported the narrative of affirmation of self-ascribed gender identity or such, then.

Edit - Looked it up:

HIV Prevalence, Risk Behavior, Hormone Use and Surgical History Among Transgender Persons in Thailand

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2014.950982?casa_token=wqVYfq1UHPMAAAAA:JJPWJVcT7q_t5_VHhpAaRcDTiKjjWAC4063sIJ5_iXQzBWxO_zljCAQdsmY_sFeC8gIv7Ua5ayTD

Suicide rates and poor health outcomes just as bad in Thailand as in the West amongst Transgenders. This more suggests similar processes at play in both cultures leading to poor health outcomes, rather than merely cultural difference.
 
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The increased suicidality of transpeople can be explained by being a minority group. This isn't unique to being trans, but can happen when any minority faces oppression or is an outrgroup. Gays also have increased rates of suicide, as do rural white men in the US.
Sorry, I missed this somehow. No, their increased suicidality cannot be ascribed to being a minority group. It is about 40% that attempt it, which is higher than in Major Depression in most countries. No other group has such a high rate, outgroup or not; and as stated before, even when treated as less of an outgroup as in Scandinavia, suicide rates don't fall.

To give some perspective, you mention the rise in suicide amongst rural white men in the US. While this is a big problem, the incidence of suicidality is 17.6 per 100000 there, vs transgenders where that would be about 40000 per 100000. The two really are in very different ballparks. This is a population we are failing miserably.
 
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Sorry, I missed this somehow. No, their increased suicidality cannot be ascribed to being a minority group. It is about 40% that attempt it, which is higher than in Major Depression in most countries. No other group has such a high rate, outgroup or not; and as stated before, even when treated as less of an outgroup as in Scandinavia, suicide rates don't fall.

To give some perspective, you mention the rise in suicide amongst rural white men in the US. While this is a big problem, the incidence of suicidality is 17.6 per 100000 there, vs transgenders where that would be about 40000 per 100000. The two really are in very different ballparks. This is a population we are failing miserably.

Well, I don't see what else there is to do. Reparative therapy is as useless for transpeople as it is for gays. Gender identity is a relatively stable characteristic of a person and discrimination based on gender identity is equally unethical in my book.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
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Well, I don't see what else there is to do. Reparative therapy is as useless for transpeople as it is for gays. Gender identity is a relatively stable characteristic of a person and discrimination based on gender identity is equally unethical in my book.
Here we are entering a minefield of idealogy though. So back when transgenderism was still Gender Identity Disorder and debate was still allowed, there was much discussion on treatment modalities. Psychotherapeutic intervention actually showed much promise in children, but were very much useless for adults. So, it very much depends if you see adults as people in which the pathologic process has continued too far for the interventions; or see it as innate and thus many of these children for whom therapy improved, were not 'real' transgenders or there are more than one process going on. It is quite hard to know what is going on, and all these political meddling and ideologues are not helping us reach the answer. Forcing children to 'transition' and such, we really have no evidence for, and certainly will decrease their life expectancy from the drugs often used. Testing known dangerous treatments with no evidence of efficacy on children, is usually thoroughly outside the pale of the acceptable.

All in all, we don't know. What we do know, is Transgenders are killing themselves in droves, and none of our interventions are helping at all. All this idealogical quibbling, trying to force affirmation or transition for political ends, is tying Medicine's hands, and the people really suffering thereby are the Transgenders themselves and their loved ones. I mean, I don't really even know if 'transgender' is a legitimate psycho-physiological category, or merely an assumed social identity.
 
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