Riddle me this

DamianWarS

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"Why should I believe what you believe, to believe in Jesus?"
believe in Christ, not me or my beliefs. Seek him, not me or my ideology. What I prove or not prove means nothing and doesn't actually "create" Christ so don't listen to me, listen to Christ.
 
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Freodin

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believe in Christ, not me or my beliefs. Seek him, not me or my ideology. What I prove or not prove means nothing and doesn't actually "create" Christ so don't listen to me, listen to Christ.
I'd love to do that... but he doesn't answer his phone when I try to call.

Sorry for the snark, but seriously: "Christ" doesn't talk. "Christ" may not even have been real, and if he was, the person he's based on has been dead for almost 2000 years.

All we have is a book that allegedly recorded what he allegedly said... and for some of these things we already know that he didn't.

So what you are really saying here is basically: don't listen to what I say about Jesus... listen to what other people say about Jesus.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'd love to do that... but he doesn't answer his phone when I try to call.

Sorry for the snark, but seriously: "Christ" doesn't talk. "Christ" may not even have been real, and if he was, the person he's based on has been dead for almost 2000 years.

All we have is a book that allegedly recorded what he allegedly said... and for some of these things we already know that he didn't.

So what you are really saying here is basically: don't listen to what I say about Jesus... listen to what other people say about Jesus.
don't use the phone to talk to Jesus, it's probably not going to work that way. Either Jesus is real or he is not but nothing anyone says will change the actual truth. I am not suggesting you listen to other people about I'm suggesting you ask Jesus to reveal himself to you.

There is an account in the gospels between Jesus and his disciples and he asks "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" (referring to himself) and they give various answers about what people think of him. Then Jesus is more specific and asks "Who do you say I am?" At this point, one of his disciples, Peter, says "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus then says something interesting after this, he tells Peter that "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven". What this tells me is although you may get 1000 answers from 1000 people none of those answers will be meaningful to you unless you get revelation from God himself. So seek the later, not the former.

There is a discovery bible study online you could go through. It's not about telling you the answers it's about directing you through scripture and asking the same very simple set of questions of each study and its purpose is so that by the end you receive revelation from God. Not that it's magic but it helps your focus on scripture, God and yourself in different ways and challenges how you approach choices in your life through the natural discovery of scripture. for an example here are the questions which are repeated each study (they never change)
  • What does this story tell me about God?
  • What does this story tell me about people?
  • If this is really God's word, what changes would I have to make in my life?
  • Who am I going to tell?
that's it. read the passage and answer the questions. Go through the study until it's complete. The questions are meant to be openly discussed in groups but belief is not a requirement so pull some of your friends together who also have questions about Jesus and work through it together. There is an app you can get at The Discovery Bible Study App for Android and iPhone or do the study online at https://studies.discoverapp.org/. This is just an example, they didn't "invent" it, but provide a nice study guide.

There's no money or signing up, just the study and it's pretty transparent. I think a good start is working through one study once per week with a few friends or family. With this approach, it's not others who are telling you who Jesus is or who God is and if you should believe or not but instead you discover it for yourself and make the choice for yourself. when you do it in a group the group tends to make a choice together.
 
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DamianWarS

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*Sigh*
Why is it that you people never listen?
no one can tell you what to believe or not believe and no one can conjure up truth that never was there. Either it's there or it's not but and no amount of words or questions will change this. if you want to believe then start making the choices to believe. If you don't want to believe then stop asking "us people" to convince you of something you don't want to accept. The only person who has control over this is you, you exist in your own vacuum and will allow what you wish inside the vacuum and what you don't wish outside but none of that changes who God is.
 
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Freodin

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no one can tell you what to believe or not believe and no one can conjure up truth that never was there. Either it's there or it's not but and no amount of words or questions will change this. if you want to believe then start making the choices to believe. If you don't want to believe then stop asking "us people" to convince you of something you don't want to accept. The only person who has control over this is you, you exist in your own vacuum and will allow what you wish inside the vacuum and what you don't wish outside but none of that changes who God is.
See, that again is just another case of where you simply do not listen.

Either something is or is not. Yes, I would agree. So, does it make a difference? Can we tell the difference?

Believe it or do not believe it. I cannot tell you what to believe or what not to believe. If you want to believe, believe. If you don't want to believe, do not believe.

Right?

Wrong!

If there is a difference, if it makes a difference, then there has to be a way to find out. A real way. Not a way of "decide for yourself".

The square root of 2 is or is not an irrational number. I can tell you which. I can show you. I can guide you through a way to find out. I can take you through each single step and we can find out if this is correct or not. And if, after all that, you still do not "accept" it... you are just wrong.

Now for most of us, in most situations, it is completely irrelevant whether the square root of 2 is irrational or not. And still there is an answer.
But in this question, a question that your faith says it literally a question of life and death... the answer is just "meh, accept it or don't. I don't have anything to show you."

You might disagree... but at least listen to why we say what we say. Why we object what we object. Why we doubt what we doubt.
 
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NeverL0ved

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There is a spiritual war going on for truth.

Christians are not suddenly perfect so that all agree.

The bottom line is a relationship with the Creator not theology.

Square one is accepting what Jesus did for you personally.

Then the journey begins...

Because they assume religion is Jesus' teachings. It isn't. It is an institution unto itself. Each uses what is convenient to justify their own views, ways and environment. In other words they make God over in their own image instead of changing to suit His will.

This is some sort of association fallacy. Just because one being perfectly knows a certain bit of information, it does not follow that everyone will know it perfectly.
Consistent doctrine amongst all believer's should be evident if they all share one unified spirit, don't you think?
 
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Resha Caner

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But if that really was a "true friendship", a relationship of equals, or at least of equal valuing and caring... this would either have to be reciprocal, or irrelevant.

You have an odd conception of friendship and of Christianity. You make friendship a relationship of exactly identical people, and there is no such thing. I have friendships with people who smoke, and smoking will forever be a threat to their health. It doesn't cease to be a friendship because I'm healthier and care about their health.

I have friendships with people who are far superior cinematographers to myself (filmmaking is a hobby of mine). I learn from them and I change because of our friendship. It doesn't cease to be a friendship even if I must forever defer to their expertise in cinematography. Cinematography is not the entirety of filmmaking, and it is not the entirety of our friendship.

With respect to my unbelieving friends, I will forever remain their friend - even if they never become a Christian. I am their friend because I am their friend. My desire for them to know Christ would only be an ulterior motive (at least in the sense in which I speak of it) if I were to walk away from them because it seems they will never believe. And I am more than willing to listen to their thoughts on spirituality. It is the willingness to listen, not the necessity of accepting what they say, that makes a friendship. Even with that said, I can easily think of specific instances when unbelieving friends have changed my views on spirituality. Having faith in Christ doesn't mean I'm suddenly right about every spiritual matter. What has never changed is my faith in Jesus as the Christ - just as no one has convinced me my biological father is Chinese. I don't recall anyone saying we can't be friends because I believe I have the truth that my biological father is Caucasian.

But your message is coming through. Because I'm Christian, you and I can never be friends.
 
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com7fy8

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What if people exposed me to the wrong theology?

Well, for that matter, why should you trust what you can get yourself to believe? Possibly, you are not somehow superior to anyone else so you can be sure of getting it right.

Only if God has me get something right > either He does, or I have a problem.

If no one can trust what they believe themselves without Jesus intercession, then why is Christianity splintered with belief's? One God does not equal many conflicting belief's.

Christians are not suddenly perfect so that all agree.

The bottom line is a relationship with the Creator not theology.
So, yes even children of God can vary in their understanding. But my experience is that often God's people do not disagree, but we each can make different discoveries about a scripture, then feed what we have to one another.

So, in case all you are seeing is disagreement, often between whole groups, it is possible you need to discover how Christians are able to help one another. But we tend not to make a project of congratulating ourselves in comparison with others. But we can spend more time with talking about how we need to get more real with God and forgiving.

they make God over in their own image instead of changing to suit His will.
When you see people only saying they are right, merely in comparison to other groups, this can mean they are ones who are only trying to fit God's word to how they are and how they want to see things.

And yes our character can be our dictator of what we are able to understand and how we can see things.

So, any of us can do this; so we all need to trust God and depend on Him to have us getting things right. But our Heavenly Father does have us sharing and caring as family; so He does not have us finding things out, only by our lonesome.
 
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Quackduck

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So, yes even children of God can vary in their understanding. But my experience is that often God's people do not disagree, but we each can make different discoveries about a scripture, then feed what we have to one another.

So, in case all you are seeing is disagreement, often between whole groups, it is possible you need to discover how Christians are able to help one another. But we tend not to make a project of congratulating ourselves in comparison with others. But we can spend more time with talking about how we need to get more real with God and forgiving.

When you see people only saying they are right, merely in comparison to other groups, this can mean they are ones who are only trying to fit God's word to how they are and how they want to see things.

And yes our character can be our dictator of what we are able to understand and how we can see things.

So, any of us can do this; so we all need to trust God and depend on Him to have us getting things right. But our Heavenly Father does have us sharing and caring as family; so He does not have us finding things out, only by our lonesome.

Depending on a god that more than likely doesn't exist, doesn't seem very sensible to me.
 
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Halbhh

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"Why should I believe what you believe, to believe in Jesus?"
You'd rather want to find out for yourself, is my attitude. You'd listen to the only one sure to know, Jesus of Nazareth, and try out doing exactly what He said. Any other path would seem putting faith in some perfection of some individual preacher or whatever, a total gamble.
Oh, I thought you wanted to make a point... but sure, I'll give my thoughts.

This is based on my interpretation of your post, which in turn is based on my experience with several other Christians (and other people) making a similar point. A point from, let's say "indirect evidence".

There is X. X comes from Y. Thus Y.

Now the step that I, from my own various experiences, doubt is the second. Does X really come from Y? Does it only come from Y? If not... that would invalidate the whole line of reasoning, wouldn't it?

So... someone might be smart, good looking, lovable and successful. But if they base that on their haircut instead of their faith... or even a mystical supernatural intervention... what would we do to find out?

I'd not speculate a long time about this or that proposition or logical chain, past a certain limited time. I'd just try out what Jesus said, and find out whether it works. It eliminates a huge bunch of ifs.
 
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DamianWarS

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See, that again is just another case of where you simply do not listen.

Either something is or is not. Yes, I would agree. So, does it make a difference? Can we tell the difference?

Believe it or do not believe it. I cannot tell you what to believe or what not to believe. If you want to believe, believe. If you don't want to believe, do not believe.

Right?

Wrong!

If there is a difference, if it makes a difference, then there has to be a way to find out. A real way. Not a way of "decide for yourself".

The square root of 2 is or is not an irrational number. I can tell you which. I can show you. I can guide you through a way to find out. I can take you through each single step and we can find out if this is correct or not. And if, after all that, you still do not "accept" it... you are just wrong.

Now for most of us, in most situations, it is completely irrelevant whether the square root of 2 is irrational or not. And still there is an answer.
But in this question, a question that your faith says it literally a question of life and death... the answer is just "meh, accept it or don't. I don't have anything to show you."

You might disagree... but at least listen to why we say what we say. Why we object what we object. Why we doubt what we doubt.

It's not apathy but ultimately it is your choice and no one else. we both have a measure of faith in the things we accept, the system I'm coming from encourages and values it, the system you're coming from would seem to discourage it and tries to narrow its gap at every chance. in the continuum, we have space, time and matter, but where's God defined in here? If he is truly God he is limitless and he created the continuum so he would exist outside of it and he cannot be measured within the continuum. If we go back to the first event what caused it? we could say it is uncaused and leave it at that but if we are driven at closing the gap of ignorance wouldn't it be more logical to say that something outside the continuum caused it and then explore what that means?

Do these words prove anything or satisfy your demand of knowing? I would expect not, but who says your demand for knowing these things needs to be answered? Who says I need to answer them? This seems to be your problem, not mine. I'm not trying to be crass but these are not my questions and if I answer them to your satisfaction or not doesn't actually change anything. Only you can move on from them and no one else. Christ tells us to follow him we need to deny ourselves. What I hear you saying is you have objections and doubts so you cannot accept, then perhaps it's time to surrender those objections and doubts. Why? because that's what it takes to follow Christ. That's the door, only you can open it or you can continue to say I'm not listening.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Consistent doctrine amongst all believer's should be evident if they all share one unified spirit, don't you think?

No - it is an interactive relationship with the Spirit of Truth via imperfect individuals, but core beliefs are agreed on.

Added to this the Father if Lies wants to get his oar in and twist truth if he can - Temptation of Jesus is a case in point.

No real believer argues against Jesus being risen in the flesh. Read the Gospels and make your choice... True or not?
 
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Quackduck

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No - it is an interactive relationship with the Spirit of Truth via imperfect individuals, but core beliefs are agreed on.

Added to this the Father if Lies wants to get his oar in and twist truth if he can - Temptation of Jesus is a case in point.

No real believer argues against Jesus being risen in the flesh. Read the Gospels and make your choice... True or not?

If Jesus resurrected why didn't he stay down here on Earth? The usual excuse is that he work down here was done, Hmmmmmmmmmm!
 
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Carl Emerson

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If Jesus resurrected why didn't he stay down here on Earth? The usual excuse is that he work down here was done, Hmmmmmmmmmm!

It was prophesied by Jeremiah that His spirit would indwell believers and continue His work - read Acts... That is exactly what happened. No surprise there. No 'excuse' needed. Read my testimonial thread here if you are seriously interested.
Jesus's Ministry
 
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timothyu

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Everything in the Bible as far as what it states makes sense, if you look at it from God's angle. The whole thing revolves around the will of man vs the will of God and God's will shows by using man as an example that it is a foolproof solution to our woes and ways. It's unfortunate the world and religion chooses to see His ways through man's eyes.
 
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timothyu

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If Jesus resurrected why didn't he stay down here on Earth? The usual excuse is that he work down here was done, Hmmmmmmmmmm!
God needed time for all the forums on the internet to come along to show the difference between ways of man and ways of God and the prejudices that dictate what is allowed on said forums which like with the Pharisees, usually favour the institutions of man.
 
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DamianWarS

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If Jesus actually asked people to leave their responsibilities and follow him that was not or a good or responsible thing to do, imo.
He tells us to deny our self, not our responsibilities. Essentially it is a focus of changing our ambitions to give glory to God rather than self.
 
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