Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”?

Hawkins said:

He's harmed more by accepting human insults from the point of His crucifixion till the end of this earth.

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What harm do you refer to ? How it hurts others seeking Him? Physical harm to someone He cares for ? Spiritual harm to someone who can be harmed? (or even what is "harm") ....

Hawkins said:

God can be harmed by human (sinners) insults, and has zero tolerance on it.

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Yahuweh (Sovereign Creator) is not harmed by humans. He tolerates a lot , even from His people.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yahuweh (Sovereign Creator) is not harmed by humans. He tolerates a lot , even from His people.

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That's what

yeshuaslavejeff said:

What harm do you refer to ? How it hurts others seeking Him? Physical harm to someone He cares for ? Spiritual harm to someone who can be harmed? (or even what is "harm") ....

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Reread my post. It's stated clearly there.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I don't know that any such fear is "godly", but His human fear such as it was was recognized in Scripture, and there is a reference to that I'll try to find in a little while as it tells why He Prayed to the Father, and what for, and what the answer was.

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That's what Paul put in Hebrews (if you believe that Paul is the author). I simply provided an explanation on what it is.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yahuweh (Sovereign Creator) is not harmed by humans. He tolerates a lot , even from His people.

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So He pays no effort in atoning for the sin of men? He paid a dear price IMO, not just through the crucifixion but suffered more as God.

Hawkins said:

That's what
Reread my post. It's stated clearly there.

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It appears you claim, your opinion, that Yahuweh is harmed by people's opinions.
He is not.

Hawkins said:

That's what Paul put in Hebrews (if you believe that Paul is the author). I simply provided an explanation on what it is.

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I don't know that your opinion fits Yahuweh's meaning yet. All things are to be tested before acception.

Hawkins said:

So He pays no effort in atoning for the sin of men? He paid a dear price IMO, not just through the crucifixion but suffered more as God.

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This makes no sense at all to me. The price He paid is immeasurable and immeasurably great with eternal results.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It appears you claim, your opinion, that Yahuweh is harmed by people's opinions.
He is not.

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It's in your opinion that He's not. He told Noah that He regreted to show His sorrow. No?

This makes no sense at all to me. The price He paid is immeasurable and immeasurably great with eternal results.

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What's that price, please say it. That's the point.

Hawkins said:

It's in your opinion that He's not. He told Noah that He regreted to show His sorrow. No?

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< shrugs > quote Him.

Hawkins said:

What's that price, please say it. That's the point.

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? the point was either overlooked or missed by me, or perhaps wrong ?

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Paid The Price?
OpenBible.info › topics › jesus_paid_the_price
Bible verses about Jesus Paid The Price. ... In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, .... atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Study Bible
A Call to Holiness
…18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

yeshuaslavejeff said:

? the point was either overlooked or missed by me, or perhaps wrong ?

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Paid The Price?
OpenBible.info › topics › jesus_paid_the_price
Bible verses about Jesus Paid The Price. ... In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, .... atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Click to expand...

On the other hand, you say that God cannot be harmed. So the justification lies alone on a one time crucifixion. That's what I disgree, as even Peter can provide an equivalent sacrifice. I believe that God's harmed more than just that, by providing the evidence that He refused to lay down His real name to humans, by the book of Rev that He will only reveal His name after the judgment, by the very unforgivable sin of insulting the Holy Spirit while God the Son is no one less important.

Unless you can provide an alternative explanation on the 3 points I provided. I an entiled to my explanation as it makes sense to me to have those 3 explained.

Hawkins said:

I believe that God's harmed more than just that, by providing the evidence that He refused to lay down His real name to humans, by the book of Rev that He will only reveal His name after the judgment, by the very unforgivable sin of insulting the Holy Spirit while God the Son is no one less important.

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This doesn't make any Biblical Sense to me at all - it is apparently directly contrary to what all the followers of Jesus have believed in the last 2000 years, and also directly contrary to all Yahuweh did and what He told Moses and others in TORAH, the PROPHETS and PSALMS (and again yes still, in the NEW TESTAMENT).
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Hawkins said:

On the other hand, you say that God cannot be harmed.

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This is verified throughout Scripture. Jesus did suffer as a man, willingly laying down His life, but Yahuweh, and Yahushua(Jesus) now , and before the incarnation, can not and could not be harmed. That assumption that Yahuweh or Yahushua (GOD)can be harmed is quite opposed to all Scripture as far as I know.
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Hawkins said:

So the justification lies alone on a one time crucifixion.

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THis doesn't follow from anything so far.

Hawkins said:

That's what I disgree, as even Peter can provide an equivalent sacrifice.

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No other man could provide an equivalent sacrifice, not even ten hundred billion billion billion men could. Jesus sacrifice is unique, was unexpected, yet totally Yahuweh and Yahushua's Plan, Perfect Plan, for the Redemption of Ekklesia AS WRITTEN.

redleghunter said:

Check the OP again. It addresses Hebrews chapter 5.

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When jm and the op contradict MARK, and contradict, or contradict any other Scripture, it is significant and exposed the false premise/ statement.

redleghunter said:

Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”? (Hebrews 5)

The context of Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that “who, in the days of His flesh” refers back to Christ, the main subject in v. 5.

In Gethsemane, Jesus agonized and wept, but committed Himself to do the Father’s will in accepting the cup of suffering which would bring His death (Matt. 26: 38–46; Luke 22: 44, 45).

Anticipating bearing the burden of judgment for sin, Jesus felt its fullest pain and grief (Is. 52: 14; 53: 3–5, 10).

Though He bore the penalty in silence and did not seek to deliver Himself from it (Is. 53: 7), He did cry out from the agony of the fury of God’s wrath poured on His perfectly holy and obedient Person (Matt. 27: 46; 2 Cor. 5: 21).

Jesus asked to be saved from remaining in death, i.e., to be resurrected (Ps. 16: 9, 10). “Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered” (v. 8).

Christ did not need to suffer in order to conquer or correct any disobedience. In His deity (as the Son of God), He understood obedience completely. As the incarnate Lord, He humbled Himself to learn (Luke 2: 52).

He learned obedience for the same reasons He bore temptation: to confirm His humanity and experience its sufferings to the fullest (2: 10; Luke 2: 52; Phil. 2: 8). Christ’s obedience was also necessary so that He could fulfill all righteousness (Matt. 5: 13) and thus prove to be the perfect sacrifice to take the place of sinners (1 Pet. 3: 18).

He was the perfectly righteous One, whose righteousness would be imputed to sinners (Rom. 3: 24–26). “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation” (v. 9). Because of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ and His perfect sacrifice for sin, He became the cause of salvation.

True salvation evidences itself in obedience to Christ, from the initial obedience to the gospel command to repent and believe (Acts 5: 32; Rom. 1: 5; 2 Thess. 1: 8; 1 Pet. 1: 2, 22; 4: 17) to a life pattern of obedience to the Word (Rom. 6: 16). —-John MacArthur

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I went through Hebrews 5 once and now I'm trying to remember what I found?



I note that your question sates "why does it say"; now "how did Jesus learn" or "why did He learn"?

So; why does it say...? Because it's trying to tell us something.

(Yeah, thanks captain obvious!)



The word "learn" in Hebrews 5:8 means to acquire understanding through experience. The word "know" (Adam knew Eve.) often portrays an intimate knowledge of something. (Not necessarily sexual, but experienced of the soul none the less.)

The beginning of chapter 5 speaks of the high priest offering sacrifices for sin; his own included. Yet Jesus having no sin had not that necessity. Passages from the Old Testament describe Messiah's experience of atonement being that God had not "left his soul in hell" on account of God's just character forbade Him from condemning a "man" who was guiltless of personal sin.

Now the concept of God suffering His own wrath (being forsaken) to atone for sinners is kind of hard for us to wrap our brains around. Yet Jesus the sinless God/man forsaken of the Father and Spirit to atone for human sin was exactly His/his experience of suffering. He "learned obedience" "even unto death" (manifest as) "death on a cross". He/he obeyed "the plan" (that determined in eternity) to the utter destruction of His/his own personhood.

Since God is an immortal entity; I've come to the conclusion that what actually killed Jesus was the renting of the Divine nature from the human nature. His human soul had already been consigned to Sheol / hades for the purpose of the determinate of the Divine to accomplish the remainder of the atonement by the death of the flesh. His Divine will that drove the sinless human will to obey the Father unto death. The culmination of having learned obedience being that death.

(Am likely rambling a bit here now); but God not having the experience (at least as a created entity "in the flesh") of what it mean to obey now had that learning through the incarnation; even though an aspect of His/his person possessed all wisdom and knowledge. The full extent of that Divinity was hid from His/his own understanding / experience through the limitations the flesh circumscribed His/his existence too. This is what made Him/him an appropriate sacrifice; that He/he had no advantage over the first Adam in the scope of His/his humanity.

I think "learning obedience" was a process He/he accumulated through the entirety of His/his whole life. Isaiah 52 and 53 speak of Jesus being despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows etc. and those passages imply the scope of his entire life; not just his death.

Isaiah's Description

Isaiah 53

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

So, here's the first set of verses in our English translation; but what do these passages actually "look like" in the Hebrew?

(Pun Intended!)

Interestingly enough, these verses actually don't have anything to do with Jesus's physical description. They actually have to do with people's perception of him in the role he came as; Messiah, "suffering servant" and King!

Let's break it down:

Verse 2:
First off "he shall grow up" is a Hebrew tense that is an incomplete action. (He's never going to stop "growing up"; which doesn't make any sense in English, but when we translate the rest of the verse, it will make more sense.)

"as a sapling in the face of Him (God); as a root which originated all the way down at the foundation (not getting it's nourishment from the dry ground around it)."

"...which has no..." The Hebrew word "no" in this verse is most often translated as "nor", then "can not": thirdly most translated as "no", "never", "not", fourthly as "without" and then "surely".

"form"; which this word is derived from a root word meaning "inclination toward".

"honorable", "majestic", "respected" or "splendorous" - "adornment".

"That when we see / saw / looked upon him, there were no attributes (of physical, charisma or any other "qualification") that would cause us to be pleased with; (as in desire to exalt or praise) him.

Now the next verse explains "why" (or rather people's perception of him based primarily on life circumstance.

Verse 3:
"He is dismissed with contempt, (looked down upon, marginalized) and refused, (ignored and forsaken) by men. A man who'd been inflicted upon with / sickened (emotionally) by painful suffering; (intimately) familiar with hardship. Of whom we hid our faces from, dismissing with contempt and not thinking of or considering him."

Verse 4:
Yet in all truth, our hardships he has taken upon him and that which pains our souls, he has lifted the heavy load. Yet we ourselves reckoned (thought of, concluded) him to be struck down defeated and cursed by God; contending with his frustration.

Verse 5:
But his heart was pierced and emptied because of our rebellion. He was crushed to contrition on account of being punished for our guilt, the correction of our welfare being secured was laid up against him; buy his chastisement we are made completely whole.

He shall continue to spring up as a sapling in the face of Him, as a root in dry ground nourished from the Foundation; surely never with an inclination toward honored majesty. For when we see him, we recognize no qualifying attributes we would desire to exhalt him for.

He is dismissed with contempt and ignored by men; a man who's soul has been inflicted with suffering and is well aquatinted with hardship. Of whom we hide our faces; dismissing him with contempt and not thinking to want to be considering him.

Genuinely, our hardships he's carried and helped to lift the heavy load upon our souls. But we concluded him to be struck down and cursed by God; thus the reason for his frustrations in life.

But his heart was pierced and emptied because of our rebellion. He was crushed to the point of total prostration for the sake of being punished for our guilt. This correction that secured our peace with God was laid against him; that by his being bruised, we were made completely whole.

These verses as taken together, considering the whole of Jesus's life and not only the 3 days and 3 nights of enduring wrath; give us more of a complete picture of what he actually did. The Scripture says he "learned obedience" and "Being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:8

This learning obedience started from the first moment he was consciously aware of his own internal desire to be obedient.

Isaiah 52

13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Verse 13
Behold, on account of his wise understanding; my Servant shall rise up, being carried on high to exceeding exaltation.

Verse 14
Just as many were made desolate on account of; therefore was he ritually corrupted more than any man, of his inclination toward majestic ornamentation more than the sons of men.

Verse 15
Therefore he shall cause to leap: Nations, as locusts more numerous (than Israel) against / upon / on the ground of, to draw together closed the mouths of kings, for what not had been taken into consideration by them; they shall be forced to see to. And also who they would not listen to; they will consider diligently.

Behold, on account of his wisdom; my Servant shall rise, being carried on high in exceeding exaltation.

Just as many are made desolate on account of him; his likeness was intentionally distorted more than any man and the nature of his Kingship more than the sons of men.

Therefore he shall send nations as locusts to cover the land of Judah and shut the mouths of kings, for he they did not consider, now they are forced to recognize. Also, he who they would not hearken to; they will be forced to consider diligently.

So there's my additional "2 cents".

redleghunter said:

Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”? (Hebrews 5)

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Seems to me it's like the book Black Like Me about a white journalist who temporarily darkened his skin to pass for a black man. He learned what it was like to be black in southern States in the late 50's, early 60's. Jesus learned what it is like to be fully human.

Black Like Me - Wikipedia

Hawkins said:

On the other hand, you say that God cannot be harmed. So the justification lies alone on a one time crucifixion. That's what I disgree, as even Peter can provide an equivalent sacrifice. I believe that God's harmed more than just that, by providing the evidence that He refused to lay down His real name to humans, by the book of Rev that He will only reveal His name after the judgment, by the very unforgivable sin of insulting the Holy Spirit while God the Son is no one less important.

Unless you can provide an alternative explanation on the 3 points I provided. I an entiled to my explanation as it makes sense to me to have those 3 explained.

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So your questions are:
1. Why was Jesus afraid?
2. What is God's real name?
3. What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

Question #1 - Why was Jesus afraid and what was He/he afraid of?

Scripture answers that for us. But in order for you to understand what He was afraid of; you have to understand what the atonement meant.

Sinners under the wrath of God are cast away from His presence. In the Lake of Fire, under condemnation, the only thing they know of God is judgement. They know no mercy. I've heard it said that life on earth is the closest a saint will ever get to hell; but also the closest the unregenerate will ever get to heaven. (That's pretty scary!)

So to atone for sinners; Jesus the God/man was forsaken by the Father and the Spirit. This is why he said just before he died "Why have you forsaken me?" That was not something said simply for our benefit. That was a real experience he endured. And that had nothing to do with humans insulting God.

Now what did Jesus fear so much about the wrath of God?
Jeremiah 25 answers that question. The "cup" of the wrath of God causes the men to go insane. Amos 5:19 describes Judgement Day as like unto a man runs from a lion and is met by a bear; or goes into "the house" and leans upon the wall and a serpent bites him. There's no escape. It's coming. You know it's coming and there's no place to go! Wrath will get you!

Now obviously it was imperative from God's plan that Jesus did not go insane before he was crucified. Which, as of his humanity was totally possible. Humans were created with a breaking point. And that is because of the temporal existence of what we are. Psychosis (which is to loose touch with reality) is a natural response to extreme stress. Now because Jesus had a Divine nature; that did not happen. The reason that did not happen was because part of the atonement was to consign Jesus's human soul to Sheol. That happened on Passover when he was confronted by the angel of death.

Now what did Jesus the human fear beyond God's wrath?
He feared failing the Father and loosing everything he came to accomplish. That's what Jeremiah 30 is talking about with "time of Jacob's trouble". "Jacob" is afraid of losing his inheritance. But Jacob is delivered from Sheol based on his own personal righteousness.

One thing that's useful to understand about the difference between Jesus's experience of life in this world, that was until the atonement; he was never separated from the other two persons of the Godhead. Psalm 139 gives a good explanation of Jesus's personal experience living in this communion. Not only was he aware of the aspect of his own Divinity; the Spirit and the Father were always "in his space". Every thing he did. Every emotion he had. Every trial he went through. Every thing he learned; was done so, in the acute awareness of the presence of the rest of the Godhead. Psalm 139 describes this experience as comforting but overwhelming at the same time. Jesus was very happy there though. That was his "safe space" and when the atonement commenced; he suddenly knew what it was like to be on the outside of that space. And having been the only thing he knew his entire life - THAT WAS TERRIFYING!

Question #2 - Revelation:

Now the reference you make to a stone with a "new name" on it comes out of the address to the seven churches. That is in the address to the church at Pergamus.

Pergamos = They are permanently established in “satan’s throne”. “Throne” here means someone who exercises a position of authority. They are said to “hold fast to the name” (of Christ) and “not deny the faith” going back to the days of “Antipas” “my witness, the faithful one of me who was killed among you where Satan dwells”: (Satan is permanently established.)

“Antipas” means “in opposition to father”. This Antipas was one who was “killed” by the “church fathers” because he confronted them with their sins. God states that Antipas was indeed His witness and faithful servant.

Now the context in which they did this?

God’s admonition is that they have those among them that teach the “doctrine of Balaam” which is to “lay a stumbling block” before the people causing them to “eat things sacrificed to idols” and “commit fornication”. Also they tolerate the “doctrine of the Nicolaitanes”.

Now although there is some historical explanation on who the Nicolaitanes were and what they believed; the word itself is derived from two other words that mean “conquer people”. This hearkens to 1 Peter 5:2 where leaders (which could be pastors or elders) aren’t to “lord over the flock”.

Christ tells them to repent or He will “come unto them quickly” and “fight against (them) with the sword of His mouth”. The “sword of (HIs mouth) / the Spirit” is the word of God. The result of this is “He that overcomes I will give hidden manna and a white stone and in that stone is a new name that no man knows save him that receives it.”

“White”, in this passage means “brilliant”. It’s something that’s so white it shines. It’s most often used in the context of clothing, to describe what angels, saints (or God) is wearing.

“Stone” on the other hand, is the system in the ancient world they used to vote. A “white stone” was a vote in favor of and a “black stone” was a vote against. So in essence; the “Antipas”(s) who’ve been “martyred” by this church have a vote of favor from God. The “stone” of that “vote” contains a “new name”.

Now the “new name” is interesting too. “New” means “original”, “fresh”, “novel”, “unique”. “Name” means “the reputation by which one exercises authority”. Obviously the “reputation of authority” exercised by these “martyrs” has to do with their “witness” of “declaring the gospel”. God has validated their witness.

(So the "name" on the stone isn't God's name; it's the validation of the witness of the name of the individual saint who's experienced this.)

Yet as I contemplate this scenario; (having had this experience multiple times) it draws me to question “those who overcome” as opposed to the “sheeple” who just follow along? What about the sheeple? Do they prove their state of spiritual lacking by not leaving? I don’t know the answer to that? The ones who speak up, tend to be the ones who get singled out and depending on how “dysfunctional” the church is; if it comes to a major split, multitudes tend to “file out” the door. Granted when people “split” for Biblical reasons, it’s not a bad thing. These types of congregations though tend to self destruct.

(So, this is a congregation (probably) geographically in a place of influence; or at least they exert some sort of influence in their city. People seeking power don’t congregate in sparsely populated areas. Historically Pergamus was a large pagan city.

They appear to be sound in basic tenants of Christian doctrine; yet their leaders are “lording over” them, laying stumbling blocks before people causing the congregation in general to “swallow” doctrine that’s causing them to commit idolatry. In churches with these types of issues, one would see traditions that actually end up violating Scripture; a prevalent example being denying communion to people who aren’t members of that denomination or congregation. These churches will undoubtedly see conflict among the leadership over who’s really in charge. This to be expected because Satan is really the one “running their show”.

And consequently, this congregation is actually guilty of “martyring” the true people of God. Of course this is not literal. We know this by the language of “he that overcomes”. “Overcomes” is a figurative speech element. None the less this is a grave sin and these types of churches will be judged for it.

An example of how this can play it’s-self out is found in 2 Timothy 3.)

Question #3 - What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

To fully understand this; we have to go back to Nicodemus visiting Jesus in the middle of the night. Nicodemus (who was a member of the Sanhedrin) makes a very interesting statement to Jesus. He says: "We know you are from God because no one could do what you do if God were not with him."

This is a very important statement. Note Nicodemus says "we...." He's speaking here for the Sanhedrin. The statement he's making is "We know you are the Messiah." We know you are the Messiah because of what you are capable of doing.

Matthew 9:1-6 is a public demonstration of Jesus's ability to forgive sins and he "backs this up" by telling the man who was paralyzed to "get up and take your bed and go home".

(Note who's there that Jesus does this in front of. - I.E. members of the Sanhedrin)

Matthew 12:31 tells us that Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Mark 3:22-35 gives an example of these same members of the Sanhedrin blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

So to blaspheme the Holy Ghost is to know Jesus is the Messiah, because you witnessed in the flesh that he performed miracles and claim he did so by the power of Satan.

That was a sin that was very specific to a particular people at a specific point in time. No one today has blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

redleghunter said:

Did Jesus suffer in our place?

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RLH, I don't know if you realize, but we still suffer. Jesus suffers with us, but His suffering was for all those, past and present. But just as saying you're sorry about some offense doesn't take away the offense's damage, which must be atoned, Jesus' suffering doesn't relieve all our suffering. I know you're suffering, and I know my wife suffered. I prefer to say that Jesus eases our suffering.