Did WW II and the Holocaust Help to Ignite Vatican II?

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
your reply reminds me of children fighting: "I know you are, but what am I"? Really, you resort to this?
Actually, it is a warranted response to what I see as trolling, which began with your provocative misleading remark on the " good 'ol days," but will end here. Bye now.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

Redwingfan9

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
2,629
1,532
Midwest
✟70,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
When you think about it, Europe went from World War I to a world wide depression and then on to WW II. It must have been one terrible period for millions in Europe.
It's a time period that will go down in history as the formal break between Europe and Christianity. It has been a long time coming but the wars ended Europe as a Christian base and it resulted in the loss of Europe as moral authority worldwide. It's been downhill for Europe ever since. While economically prosperous, spiritually and morally Europe is dead.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,169
16,009
Flyoverland
✟1,224,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that WW II and the Holocaust were the only reasons for a change in the salvation teaching. Obviously, we all know that Modernism generally was a big factor. Undoubtedly many in the Church by the mid 1900's had begun to doubt the very narrow view of salvation that was taught by the Papal Bull Cantate Domino. Still, I just have a feeling that the horrendous pain and suffering that humanity endured in WW II and the Holocaust, gave a real push to the Church leaders to respond by loosening the doors of salvation, so to speak.

I guess I am saying that when the Church leaders looked at the terrors of WW II and the Holocaust, they asked themselves a question. With millions of Jews and Protestants and Muslims having suffered and died, did God automatically condemn all of them to eternal punishment, just because they were not members of the visible Catholic Church? Somehow, I believe that their hearts were softened by the awesome suffering of humanity and they decided it was time to express officially what most of them already believed, that the exclusivist position of Cantate Domino was no longer tenable in the mid-1900's.
I think you need to look at what pope John XXIII said about why he called the council. And pay attention to people he was advised by, like Jacques Maritain and the like. You proposed a meta-theory without evidence but there is some evidence to be had with which to create a theory of why the council was called. Of course there are also concerns about how the council was run, what various groups thought the council actually did, and then the whole issue of the 'spirit of Vatican II. It would be useful for you to look at the 1985 Synod on Vatican II called by pope John Paul II. It is a key for separating out the meat from the muck after Vatican II.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And also damning souls that were saved, and when "Christian Charity" could mean torturing even witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby.

Ooops. Thought better of it.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If the Holocaust helped ignite the 2nd Vatican council, then it could be because of repentance of the Vatican's role during the Holocaust.
If this is a reason than her attitude and treatment of Jews for centuries prior to this must be also be considered.

However, the question of the OP was not what V2 was called, but postulated reasons why "the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics," and if we consider that then we should also consider other "clarifying" contrasts as well, and the causes for it. Even if postulating reasons (with details) why is attacked as derailing the thread.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

Norbert L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 1, 2009
2,856
1,064
✟560,360.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
I believe numerous average everyday people are able to figure out that Outside of God, There is no Salvation which means the Church relies on Him too. The root of OCNS could have its' origins, as far as monumental events is concerned, to Martin Luther with his Ninety-five Theses.

From what I can tell as this world changes with advancements in communication and its' technological infrastructure, it's going to gradually affect doctrines over time. WW2 is a big event also but this thing of "invincible ignorance" has been baking for a long time.

In my view with regards to who receives salvation, it's still not completely ready to be taken out of the oven. That why things like your thesis are still in question. It's not as clear as I would like.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I believe numerous average everyday people are able to figure out that Outside of God, There is no Salvation which means the Church relies on Him too.
But the doctrine at issue is that of EENS: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus/Outside of the Church there is no Salvation. And the attempts to reconcile this with classic, even "infallible" EENS statements fail. Some construe this to mean that since saving Truth comes thru their Church and belief puts then into the mystical body of Christ, then non-Catholics can be saved without being formal member of their "one true church."

However, the language of many EENS statements collectively teach that one much be in converted and submission to the pope, and remain in the bosom of the church in which the Catholic Eucharist is present, and that the mystical body of Christ is one and the same thing as the organized RCC, so that one mist belong to the latter.

You can read such here .
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance"
I think it's a matter of eccumanism. I can easily say "you may be saved". Its really a no lose situation. I appear to be friendly yet I offer nothing substantial.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
The holocaust was scarcely talked about prior to the 1970's. It's been forever since I read through the various Vatican II documents but off-hand I'm at a loss to recall any specific reference to the holocaust anywhere.

My view is Pope John XXIII wanted to institute certain reforms and began the process just about as quickly as he could.
 
Upvote 0

Bob Crowley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 27, 2015
2,999
1,858
69
Logan City
✟747,316.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?

I lifted the following quote from this link -

Pope John XXIII and Vatican II

Why did Bl. Pope John XXIII call an ecumenical council in the first place?
When he [delivered] his opening speech to the Council, he just said it was an inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But there was a lot of consideration behind it. Blessed John XXIII had a prophetic insight into the need to present the faith of the Church to a world that was rapidly and significantly changing. It was the time of the Cold War, [and] the [advances] in communication and transportation [were] making the world a global village. In fact, for public relations photos, he often posed next to this huge globe, representing his concern for the whole world. He wrote encyclicals - Pacem in Terris [Peace on Earth], Mater et magistra [Mother and Teacher] - [sending] the message of peace and unity out to the world. That [concern] was a seed of the new evangelization. John Paul II said that the new evangelization was born out of the Second Vatican Council.

I think you're reading a bit too much into the holocaust specifically. On the other hand, he played a significant and heroic role in saving thousands of Jews from the Holocaust, so he obviously had a close relationship with the Jews. Pius XII was also held in high regard by the Jews for the same reason. The Vatican saved hundreds of thousands of Jews in World War II.

But John could see what was happening in the world and knew the church had to adapt. It had been locked in a reaction against "modernism" since Vatican I, but "modernism" was going to keep going no matter what the church thought about it. He could see no future in an insular church, trying to deny the advent of a "world come of age" to quote the (Protestant) Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

World War II and the Holocaust had been over for 17 years before Vatican II was called in 1962, and it was another 3 years before it finished in 1965. The world was moving towards the global village, with commercial jet travel just around the corner; the computer had long been invented if not miniaturised to today's standards; Man would walk on the moon a mere four years later; Voyager I left earth 12 years later and moved out past the Solar System 35 years after that; the internet began with ARPANET in 1983 only 18 years later, and so on.

For the Catholic Church to refuse to acknowledge the "world come of age" would have been absurd. And so he took steps towards the next stage in the development of the Catholic Church.

That he was himself conversant with the Holocaust is obvious - he personally had a hand in saving thousand of Jews from the Nazis.

But he could see the world changing right in front of his eyes, and decided to do something about the church's future role, guided by the Holy Spirit as he did so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
More so than the Holocaust itself, I believe that the horrors of the two World Wars coming so close together helped to ignite a change in the Church's teaching on salvation. I cannot prove my thesis, but I have believed this to be the case for many years. You are no doubt correct that the Church needed to change in other ways, like having the Mass in English and other native languages. My thesis only deals with the EENS salvation doctrine and how the Church changed it's interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bob Crowley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 27, 2015
2,999
1,858
69
Logan City
✟747,316.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
While I still think you over rate the importance of World War II and the Holocaust, and their influence on Vatican II, what did happen in World War II was that troops of every brand of religion or belief - Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Moslem (eg. French Algerian troops), atheistic Communism (Soviet Union, partisans in other countries), Hindu & Sikh (British Indian troops), Shinto (Japanese), Confucian (Chinese) - fought together and against each other.

They died too, and gave up their lives in defence of their cause, good or bad.

Then after the war, in Western nations anyway, troops came back to the hardline division between Catholic and Protestant. I think that a lot of them felt somewhat cynical about these divisions, since they'd been fighting side by side with each other, and putting their lives on the line to do so.

I suspect one result was that there was a certain amount of disillusionment with the church's hard-line policy on other faiths.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mattin91

Active Member
Nov 19, 2019
120
54
64
Midwest
✟1,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As a specialist in World War II history, I think the starting question is pure speculation. Aside from Christian Europe, what about Communist Russia? What god were their troops dying for in the 20th Century? What role did Russian atheism play in the lowering of moral standards in Christian Europe? What immoral freedoms did small but influential groups want?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mattin91

Active Member
Nov 19, 2019
120
54
64
Midwest
✟1,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The holocaust was scarcely talked about prior to the 1970's. It's been forever since I read through the various Vatican II documents but off-hand I'm at a loss to recall any specific reference to the holocaust anywhere.

My view is Pope John XXIII wanted to institute certain reforms and began the process just about as quickly as he could.


Here is why Pope John XXIII called for Vatican II:

Opening Speech for Council of Vatican II
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums