Struggles with Calvinism

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

I impose a filter because I believe in free will.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Butch5 said:
Because it's God who saves. If someone allows a surgeon to perform an operation have they operated on themself? If a one allows a dentist to pull a tooth, have they pulled their own tooth. Obviously not. A non sequitur is a fallacy. It means that doesn't follow. A non sequitur would be, the sky is blue because the cat purred.

Your logic is false. By allowing the surgeon to preform the operation the patient has done what others may not do. They have saved themselves by allowing the surgeon to operate on them. No way around it. Twist it whatever way you like there is no way around it.

Actually a non sequitur is something that is obviously true.

Perhaps you need to do a little more study in logic?

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I too am more than happy to let the readers decide. I post verses that show one can fall from grace, you come back with"no it doesn't, no it doesn't!"

Nonsense! I come back with logical conclusions that you seem to be unable to deal with. Therefore you resort to making accusations against me. It doesn't help your cause at all.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

The patient has done what others may not do

How so?

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I impose a filter because I believe in free will.

Of course. You impose your beliefs on the Scriptures as much or more than I do. Deny it all you want but you know it is true.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

Allowing a surgeon to perform an operation is something any normal patient can do.

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
Do you Ned a syllogism to show it?

No, please stay away from me with that! It doesn't sound like I would like it.

twin1954 said:
Those who claim that they chose Christ will deny it. Yet their theology proves them to to believe that they did something that others did not.

Where does the bible make that claim? Actual scripture, please.

Or is it a Calvinist only claim?

twin1954 said:
There are two outcomes to free will that will always happen: It turns into self-righteousness or it robs them of any peace.

Again, Where does the bible make that claim? Scripture , please.

Or is it a Calvinist only claim?

twin1954 said:
Self-righteousness because they believe that they can do what is required or they cannot do enough to give them peace.

Is doing the following, the simple thing that Christ is telling us to do in the scripture at the end of this post, due to self righteousness?

If so then are you claiming Christ is telling us to be self righteous by doing good as he commands we do in order to be saved? See, it takes our free will actions to do what the scripture below says we must do. We either do it (take action willfully/take part in our salvation) or we don't, and he tells us the out come of both of the clear choices.

Are you claiming Christ telling us to do good in order to be saved is in error?

Because it appears that is exactly what you are claiming.

Here is the scripture, and I was clear with all questions, even did them in bold so there was no confusion, please answer them:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
Your logic is false. By allowing the surgeon to preform the operation the patient has done what others may not do. They have saved themselves by allowing the surgeon to operate on them. No way around it. Twist it whatever way you like there is no way around it.

Actually a non sequitur is something that is obviously true.

Perhaps you need to do a little more study in logic?

There's no perhaps. You definitely would do well to study logical fallacies. You can try to spin it however you like, but your statement is a non sequitur. Your argument is illogical.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

"Imposing a filter" was a non sequitur in that imposing a filter and believing in free will does not follow.

BTW, what is this "filter"?

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
The patient has done what others may not do

How so?

He allowed the surgeon to perform the operation. He could have refused or he could have another surgeon perform the operation. Either way it was up to him. He did that which preserved his life. He saved himself by an act of his will.

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
He allowed the surgeon to perform the operation. He could have refused or he could have another surgeon perform the operation. Either way it was up to him. He did that which preserved his life. He saved himself by an act of his will.

He can't perform the surgery himself, thus he can't save himself. You would do well to leave this one alone. Quit while you're behind.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

The FIRST BLOOD is on you, twin, you fired off insults at me -causing me to mention your arrogance and hubris

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

But OTHERS can allow a surgeon to operate on them - how did this patient DO WHAT OTHERS CANNOT DO?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

Let's see those scriptures that prove THE TWO OUTCOMES OF FREE WILL

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

What's my FILTER?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

In your post #329, twin, you said that I was WRONG, that I come with presumptions, that I obviously build straw men, and that I don't know what Calvinism teaches

After that I pointed out your arrogance and hubris, and I still do

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

How have I "retreated"?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

In your post #364, twin, you said:

"Actually a non sequitur is something that is obviously true."

?

setst777 · Nov 12, 2019

twin1954 said:
Calvinism is a broad umbrella. It covers a multitude of beliefs. I identify as a Calvist here because it is close to what I see in the Scriptures.

There is a difference between knowing and determing. God our Savior knows the future because He has determined the future. Whatever is outside of God's purpose and ordination must control God. That which controls God is His God.

Man wants to have libertarian free will. That is actually the default position of man. "I will have my way" "I will determine my destiny. ". Man's free will is as free as a frog in a snakes belly. It can jump around all it wants but can't escape its confinement.

Adam was the representative head of all his progeny. When he fell we all fell. That is why infants die. Rom. 5

God is never thwarted. Paul told Timothy that Adam wasn't deceived. Adam knew exactly what he was doing.

He chose to die with Eve rather than live without her. He wanted her more than he wanted God.

God is not a God of plans. We plan but it rarely goes according to our plans. Those who make plans don't have a clue what may happen.

God is a God of purpose. He purposed to glorify Himself in the salvation of those He has set His love upon. He gave them to the Son and He, Christ Jesus the Lord, actually saved them.

God knows the end from the beginning because He has determined the end from the beginning. If that were not the case then God would be reacting to what men do, not the other way around.

Nice thoughts, but if you want to know the truth, you have to go back to the Scriptures in their context.

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

In other words, God does not ordain good and evil, and all that occurs; Rather, a Sovereign God righteously works out His will according to His omniscience and omnipotence. God’s sovereignty, glory and perfect will is being worked out in His creation in which every person is responsible for his own choices, just as God himself clearly instructs.

setst777 · Nov 12, 2019

hedrick said:
I see the OP is still reading the thread, so I'm going to say something.

Christian experience and Scripture give us two things that are not easy to reconcile:

Christ comes to use through grace. Like the OP, many of us are aware that we didn't choose him on our own. He chose us: "You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name." (John 15:16)

We are responsible for our choices.

If you accept that God is omnipotent, at some level he is responsible for the fact that the world has good and evil. No doubt his plans take everything into account. I'm close to Calvin on this. But I don't think this requires us to believe -- as Calvin suggests a couple of places -- that God set out to damn anyone. Scripture talks a lot about God choosing us, but I'm not aware of anyplace that it says that God chose someone for damnation. Not even in Romans.

In my opinion, "decision theology" and Calvinism both go too far, in opposite directions. It's not all about us and our choices. But God also hasn't set out to damn anyone.

I'm close to Luther here, although I think my position is common in the PCUSA.

setst RE: I am pleased that you are willing to see beyond Calvinism in their idiology regarding God's Sovereignty and TULIP.

hedrick said:
If you accept that God is omnipotent, at some level he is responsible for the fact that the world has good and evil.

setst RE: If we accept that God created man with free will to make choices, even choices regarding accepting or rejecting God's grace, I do not see Scripture blaming God, or making God responsible for man's sinful choices based on the free will God gave them. God places the responsibility on each person for the choices they make, which is why God is able to righteously judge each person.

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