Struggles with Calvinism

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

What happens when a proponent of free will who confronts a person who can actually make an argument? He accuses him of arrogance and hubris.

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

reformed05 said:
first understand that what I say is not meant to change your beliefs or anyone elses. I am merely answering your questions from my point of view. I consider myself Reformed and I don't know if there is a difference between that and Calvinism and don't care. I was a free will Christian for the first twenty years post salvation. I came to Reformed 20 years ago by reading reputable authors in the subject and comparing what they said with scripture. I have never been to a Calvinist church and the only other Reformed person I actually know is my brother. I understand from reading this thread that some people have had bad experiences in Calvinist churches and even here I have seen professes Calvinists spout things are not accurate. So, please don't lump us all together.

How do I know someone who has fallen was never saved? The parable of the souls in Matthew 13:18-23 shows that not all people who claim salva

reformed05 said:
I have never attended a Calvinist church so can't really say what they are teaching. I came by my agreement with Reformed Theology twenty years after being in free will communities and have been Reformed for the last twenty. I read the works of reputable Reformed teachers and checked all against Scripture and my own understanding of who God is. I understand from this thread that many people have encountered Calvinist churches and people who say we believe things that aren't true, showing they have a poor understanding of the theology themselves. So don't please lump us altogether.
The things I say in response to your questions is in no way trying to change your beliefs or opinions. I am merely answering your questions from my point of view.
In order to answer the one about people falling away not being saved, first I will have to show my interpretation of a few scriptures. And I know that you interpret them differently, but in fairness could you concede that it possible to interpret them the way I do as I realize it is possible to interpret them your way?
I say that since salvation is 100% from God without man's cooperation a saved person cannot turn away from the faith that saves. John3:7,8 "So not marvel that I said to you 'you must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone who is BORN OF THE SPIRIT." The New birth or regeneration is something the Spirit does FOR us. Not something He FORCES on us. It's a good thing.
John6: 37-39, 65 "All that the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My own will but to do the will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that all He has GIVEN Me I should loose nothing but should raise him up at the last day. 65 And He said, 'Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to Him by My Father. "
These verses say To Me that God gives some to Jesus and once there they will not cannot be removed. Their sins were paid for, they were bought at great price, the blood of Jesus.
Ephesians 2:4-10" But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which he loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, made us ALIVE together with Christ (by GRACE you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God, not of Works, lest anyone should boast. "
Someone living a life style of unrepentant sin with no checking of the Holy Spirit probably isn't saved Yet. Doesn't mean never. The parable of the soils, shows that this is possible, if you interpret the above scriptures as I do. But only God knows who is or will be saved. It is not for us to judge and I don't. Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed he will stand, for God is able to make him stand." Paul is talking about judging Christians who may eat foods you think they shouldn't etc. trivial things. So the servant is a Christian, his master Jesus. That answers the question of whether a Christian can loose his salvation and the question of what scripture I was referring to.
Let me make clear that we will all sin as long as a are in this fallen world in our fallen mortal bodies. 1John 1:8 makes that clear. We will fail and stumble but that does not mean we are not saved. We may even for a season remain in a sin but God is faithful to bring us back in track. And maybe there is scripture for this, maybe not. I speak from experience here. I was pulled into something and could find no way to extricate myself. But I was riddled with guilt and appalled at myself for going against God. I could not pray or even read His Word. But every morning I said this, God I only breathe because you give me breath. " That was as close to Him I could allow myself to get. In due time, He rescued me.
and I say the Bible's meaning of faith has been distorted because it means the faith that saves. The Beliefs necessary for salvatiin. No scripture to prove this it is self explanatory from the texts in which it is used. Not all of course, but certain churches interpret the Bible's use of faith to mean this conjured up belief in what you WANT causing it to come to pass.
I think all the scriptures I quoted should answer your questions, not that you will agree, and that isn't necessary, but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from. Let me know and also if I've still left some muddy waters.

You can highlight each question, one after the other and put them on a quote list, at which point you can go to the text field at the bottom of any page on that thread click in the field, then click "insert quotes" A page with all your quotes from that session will come up. You can even drag and drop then if you need to rearrange them. Then at the bottom of the list click "quote these messages" After that all the quotes will be there in the text field,
and you can reply to them by posting under each individual quote/question. Makes things much easier for you , and as it is, I'm not even sure what answers go to what question I asked, if any did, and that is what I need, answers to the individual questions in order to continue.

Thanks for your patience.

Might as well give you an example to drive the prior home. Following you will see where I went back to your you post, and highlighted a random comment, clicked the quote button that occurs when we highlight, then I did it again and again and went down to the bottom of the page and clicked the "insert quotes" button that occurs if we have quotes, and I'm sure you get the rest of it. I still mess them up so it's not a big deal, especially if one is new to the flow of posting here.

reformed05 said:
I read the works of reputable Reformed teachers and checked all against Scripture and my own understanding of who God is.

reformed05 said:
The things I say in response to your questions is in no way trying to change your beliefs or opinions.

reformed05 said:
The New birth or regeneration is something the Spirit does FOR us. Not something He FORCES on us. It's a good thing.

Nifty, huh?

Of course it will change when I actually post the finished product, but right now before I "post reply", I can write undr each of those paragraphs and it will all be posted when I "post reply"

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
What happens when a proponent of free will who confronts a person who can actually make an argument? He accuses him of arrogance and hubris.

Actually, he shuts him down.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Colossians 1:23 (KJV) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That by itself is no proof. The free will works religion always uses proof texts to show their view. But the preponderance of the Scriptures disputes their claim.

Posting proof texts is not acceptable hermeneutics.[/QUOTE]

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Butch5 said:
Actually, he shuts him down.

Really? Give it your best shot n

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
To the second question, no one claims it but the logical conclusion and obvious fact is that all those who think that God does not save unless they give Him permission by their choice save themselves.

But if no one claims it, then it shouldn't be up there as a possibility to begin with.

You feel you draw a logical conclusion, but the conclusion it is to something that doesn't exist as far as I know. Not really all that logical a conclusion in that case, if you see what I mean.

Understand now why I need to know who claims that? And I would still ask that Dave answer the question, or at the very least admit, that's not something that, worded how it is, is even an existing doctrine. It's only something made up, and tries to make anyone who tries to be obedient to God as part of their salvation, feel guilty...a terrible thing to attempt to teach a Christian.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
2 Peter 2:20-22

And this passage shows what?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

Shows that people can fall from grace.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
But if no one claims it, then it shouldn't be up there as a possibility to begin with.

You feel you draw a logical conclusion, but the conclusion it is to something that doesn't exist as far as I know. Not really all that logical a conclusion in that case, if you see what I mean.

Understand now why I need to know who claims that? And I would still ask that Dave answer the question, or at the very least admit, that's not something that, worded how it is, is even an existing doctrine. It's only something made up, and tries to make anyone who tries to be obedient to God as part of their salvation, feel guilty...a terrible thing to attempt to teach a Christian.

Those who claim that they chose Christ will deny it. Yet their theology proves them to to believe that they did something that others did not.

There are two outcomes to free will that will always happen: It turns into self-righteousness or it robs them of any peace. Self-righteousness because they believe that they can do what is required or they cannot do enough to give them peace.

No reader of the Bible claims that they saved themselves but it is obvious that those who claim to have chosen Christ by their free will have done so.

Do you Ned a syllogism to show it?

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Shows that people can fall from grace.

Not at all. It shows that people can apostixize. Yet apostasy is nothing more than doing what the natural man does. It proves nothing concerning more than that man will always choose his sin over faith.

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

reformed05 said:
I think all the scriptures I quoted should answer your questions,

I just noticed that, and actually no, they won't. A straight forward, simple, and orderly reply to each individual question will answer the questions. I showed you how to do the "orderly" part a few posts back, but the rest is up to you..

You are asking for nothing but confusion by sending me to some scripture to find the answers myself. Using the scripture to back things up is fine but asking me to find something I don't believe exists in the first place just isn't going to work at all.

If you simply choose not to answer them, just say so please, and I'll no longer expect it. Just know what it will mean to some of us of you do not. And that this debate will be over because things aren't equal.

My questions are basically defense for my end of this, and need to be addressed, as ignoring them is to ignore my end of this. Hope that helps you understand the importance of my request.

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
Really? Give it your best shot n

I've already addressed your other post. You said the free willer saves himself that's a non sequitur, a logical fallacy.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

You are not the only one here, twin 1954, I post scripture and comments not only for those posting in this thread, but for those who might read even if they don't post. I had you on IGNORE for a while, but unignored you so that others can see your bunk.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Butch5 said:
I've already addressed your. You said the free willer saves himself that non sequitur, a logical fallacy.

How so?

Man chooses Christ by an act of his free will.
Christ accepts him because he exercises his free will.
Those who do not are sent to everlasting punishment.
Therefore man saves himself by his free will choice.

There is no other logical conclusion.

Show me how this is not so.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

Oh, yes, us bad free willers - we "save ourselves", we either turn into self-righteousness or we lose our peace, according to the TULIP-sniffers, we do so many hideous, heinous things according to the Calvinists.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
You are not the only one here, twin 1954, I post scripture and comments not only for those posting in this thread, but for those who might read even if they don't post. I had you on IGNORE for a while, but unignored you so that others can see your bunk.

If you could actually debunk what I say you would. I have responded to those who have quoted me. My so-called bunk has made you retreat has it not?

Those who read without the filter that you would impose on them know that I have given you responses that you cannot answer.
That is not arrogance but simply truth.

I am more than willing to let the readers decide.

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Oh, yes, us bad free willers - we "save ourselves", we either turn into self-righteousness or we lose our peace, according to the TULIP-sniffers, we do so many hideous, heinous things according to the Calvinists.

Why don't you actually try to deny what I have said? If you can do so.

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
How so?

Man chooses Christ by an act of his free will.
Christ accepts him because he exercises his free will.
Those who do not are sent to everlasting punishment.
Therefore man saves himself by his free will choice.

There is no other logical conclusion.

Show me how this is not so.

Because it's God who saves. If someone allows a surgeon to perform an operation have they operated on themself? If one allows a dentist to pull a tooth, have they pulled their own tooth. Obviously not. A non sequitur is a fallacy. It means that doesn't follow. A non sequitur would be, the sky is blue because the cat purred.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

How have I "retreated"?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

What "filter" are you talking about?

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

I too am more than happy to let the readers decide. I post verses that show one can fall from grace, you come back with"no it doesn't, no it doesn't!"

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