Why can't they fall away, exactly. Show me biblical proof of that?
How can you tell if they were never saved? What do you look for, I mean where is your biblical proof?
And you do realize we aren't so much interested in what "reformed teaches" as we are what the bible says on the matters. So please explain how you knew someone who fell away, was never saved to begin with. I mean beyond assuming it because Calvinism told you to assume it...where does the bible verify it?
We "place" ourselves in Christ when we choose to accept him. What you are claiming is we were forced/placed into Christ when we can't possibly be in Christs if we don't choose to willingly. As in, I "placed" this class of water on the table, and the water nor the glass had anything to do with getting there, or, in so many words, I forced it to be where it now is..
Where does the bible verify that we are "placed" in Christ and we do not place ourselves in him willingly by doing as he expects of us, as in taking the action that is, in turn, actual "faith"?
You aren't describing "faith" there, but "ability" to have it, two separate things.
Question is why is it really distorted? It's not the fault of Gods word, and honestly from what I just saw, it appears to be getting distorted right here. Again, faith is not an ability, an ability is ability and faith is faith.
Jesus is able to "make" us do anything he likes but he simply doesn't work that way. Please show me the scripture to which you refer there, and lets see what it says?
side note 1), it's best to quote the scriptures you refer to, if for no other reason it can save the time of the other party asking for the quote and you having to repose.
2) I hate to assume here but after seeing these things play out so many times in the past, and also to save a little time, please answer all the questions posted in this or any post for that matter, so we can know you are able to back up what you claim. If you cannot/will not do that, the inaction will speak for itself..
Look forward to your reply.
I have never attended a Calvinist church so can't really say what they are teaching. I came by my agreement with Reformed Theology twenty years after being in free will communities and have been Reformed for the last twenty. I read the works of reputable Reformed teachers and checked all against Scripture and my own understanding of who God is. I understand from this thread that many people have encountered Calvinist churches and people who say we believe things that aren't true, showing they have a poor understanding of the theology themselves. So don't please lump us altogether.
The things I say in response to your questions is in no way trying to change your beliefs or opinions. I am merely answering your questions from my point of view.
In order to answer the one about people falling away not being saved, first I will have to show my interpretation of a few scriptures. And I know that you interpret them differently, but in fairness could you concede that it possible to interpret them the way I do as I realize it is possible to interpret them your way?
I say that since salvation is 100% from God without man's cooperation a saved person cannot turn away from the faith that saves. John3:7,8 "So not marvel that I said to you 'you must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone who is BORN OF THE SPIRIT." The New birth or regeneration is something the Spirit does FOR us. Not something He FORCES on us. It's a good thing.
John6: 37-39, 65 "All that the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My own will but to do the will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that all He has GIVEN Me I should loose nothing but should raise him up at the last day. 65 And He said, 'Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to Him by My Father. "
These verses say To Me that God gives some to Jesus and once there they will not cannot be removed. Their sins were paid for, they were bought at great price, the blood of Jesus.
Ephesians 2:4-10" But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which he loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, made us ALIVE together with Christ (by GRACE you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God, not of Works, lest anyone should boast. "
Someone living a life style of unrepentant sin with no checking of the Holy Spirit probably isn't saved Yet. Doesn't mean never. The parable of the soils, shows that this is possible, if you interpret the above scriptures as I do. But only God knows who is or will be saved. It is not for us to judge and I don't. Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed he will stand, for God is able to make him stand." Paul is talking about judging Christians who may eat foods you think they shouldn't etc. trivial things. So the servant is a Christian, his master Jesus. That answers the question of whether a Christian can loose his salvation and the question of what scripture I was referring to.
Let me make clear that we will all sin as long as a are in this fallen world in our fallen mortal bodies. 1John 1:8 makes that clear. We will fail and stumble but that does not mean we are not saved. We may even for a season remain in a sin but God is faithful to bring us back in track. And maybe there is scripture for this, maybe not. I speak from experience here. I was pulled into something and could find no way to extricate myself. But I was riddled with guilt and appalled at myself for going against God. I could not pray or even read His Word. But every morning I said this, God I only breathe because you give me breath. " That was as close to Him I could allow myself to get. In due time, He rescued me.
and I say the Bible's meaning of faith has been distorted because it means the faith that saves. The Beliefs necessary for salvatiin. No scripture to prove this it is self explanatory from the texts in which it is used. Not all of course, but certain churches interpret the Bible's use of faith to mean this conjured up belief in what you WANT causing it to come to pass.
I think all the scriptures I quoted should answer your questions, not that you will agree, and that isn't necessary, but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from. Let me know and also if I've still left some muddy waters.
