Riddle me this

Freodin said:

Understanding people is difficult.

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True ...

Freodin said:

As far as I have come to experience, most people are quite reluctant to get experimented on.

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… and true. That makes the whole "Why can't we test gods?" question I often get seem rather silly.

Freodin said:

But what happens when you meet another person, a loving family person, polite and nice to everyone, fair and just in their dealing... and a devout Muslim, Hindu, Asatru or atheist? You'd still admire the same attributes... but now they cannot come from the same source as before.
Would conclusion could you draw from that?

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That Muslims, Hindus, etc. can be loving, polite, and fair. I don't think it's hard.

Again, in contrast to what others may have said to you, I was not offering Christian good behavior and success as proof of a god. Rather, I was making 2 points:
1) People imitate what they admire - are drawn to what they admire. If unbelievers don't admire Christians, they're not going to imitate them, won't be drawn to them.
2) If you feel you have a message people should hear, it is easiest to do so within friendship - real friendship - not friendship with the ulterior motive of selling something.

Resha Caner said:

Again, in contrast to what others may have said to you, I was not offering Christian good behavior and success as proof of a god. Rather, I was making 2 points:
1) [...] If unbelievers don't admire Christians, they're not going to imitate them, won't be drawn to them.

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I agree to that.
The point that I was trying to make is that the opposite of that statement is not necessarily true.

2) If you feel you have a message people should hear, it is easiest to do so within friendship - real friendship - not friendship with the ulterior motive of selling something.

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That's a good point... one that might not necessarily be inherent in the Christian philosophy.

NeverL0ved said:

Rarely timothyu. it's too painful to be a shallow, selfish, unemotional individual.

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Than you should have no problem believing in Jesus' message which ran counter to those traditional ways of man.

NeverL0ved said:

What if people exposed me to the wrong theology? Therefore an incorrect understanding of Jesus. Obviously a lot of people are going to have unsound doctrine, and I wouldn't want to jeopardize my eternal existence by believing what other people believed.

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Well, your original question was why you should believe in Jesus. Since we are changing gears, if you were exposed to a false gospel, with false ideas that led you the wrong way, then your sincere inquiry for truth would be far more tolerable in the end for you than to remain still where you are in your current condition. God convicts every one of us that we are at odds with him, that we deserve recompense for the kind of lives we led and all the choices we have made. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth" (Romans 1:18). We suppress this unbearable truth, and dampen and quiet our conscience in light of it.

Have you ever thought about what happens after death?

Freodin said:

That's a good point... one that might not necessarily be inherent in the Christian philosophy.

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How so?

Freodin said:

I agree to that.
The point that I was trying to make is that the opposite of that statement is not necessarily true.

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No, not necessarily. In fact, it seems highly unlikely in the absence of true friendship, community, or caring - whatever shade you may want to give to it.

Resha Caner said:

How so?

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There are multiple references in the Gospels about how to deal with "enemies"... and most of them relativate the advised behaviour of "loving them" by saying you should do that in order to "shame" them.

This does not necessarily exclude "true friendship" - though this is debatable - but it strongly points to the "trying to sell something" part.

No, not necessarily. In fact, it seems highly unlikely in the absence of true friendship, community, or caring - whatever shade you may want to give to it.

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Not even then. That's the problem I was trying to point out with my previous example of the "nice unbeliever".

Freodin said:

There are multiple references in the Gospels about how to deal with "enemies"... and most of them relativate the advised behaviour of "loving them" by saying you should do that in order to "shame" them.

This does not necessarily exclude "true friendship" - though this is debatable - but it strongly points to the "trying to sell something" part.

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Mmm. So your idea is that if one loves someone, it means they will never criticize or try to change them? If so, I wouldn't agree with that.

Freodin said:

Not even then. That's the problem I was trying to point out with my previous example of the "nice unbeliever".

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Yes, I understand. There will always be those who will remain unconvinced. That's true of any idea, no matter how good. I'm not seeing anything that negates what I said.

NeverL0ved said:

What if people exposed me to the wrong theology? Therefore an incorrect understanding of Jesus. Obviously a lot of people are going to have unsound doctrine, and I wouldn't want to jeopardize my eternal existence by believing what other people believed.

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Well, for that matter, why should you trust what you can get yourself to believe? Possibly, you are not somehow superior to anyone else so you can be sure of getting it right.

Only if God has me get something right > either He does, or I have a problem.

NeverL0ved said:

"Why should I believe what you believe, to believe in Jesus?"

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There are plenty of false "Jesus" types. The only way to get to the correct one, is to read His words in scripture from the Old Testament to the New, He is in there over and over.
Be blessed on your journey.

NeverL0ved said:

What if people exposed me to the wrong theology? Therefore an incorrect understanding of Jesus. Obviously a lot of people are going to have unsound doctrine, and I wouldn't want to jeopardize my eternal existence by believing what other people believed.

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Simple definition and a hint. Philosophy is the opinions of man. Theology is religious philosophy. Do with that what you will. Now the hint. If the ways of man are backwards to the ways of the Kingdom then you should have no problem knowing the right way that Jesus taught. Man has a habit of making everything over in our own image, including Christianity.

There is a spiritual war going on for truth.

Christians are not suddenly perfect so that all agree.

The bottom line is a relationship with the Creator not theology.

Square one is accepting what Jesus did for you personally.

Then the journey begins...

NeverL0ved said:

If no one can trust what they believe themselves without Jesus intercession, then why is Christianity splintered with belief's?

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Because they assume religion is Jesus' teachings. It isn't. It is an institution unto itself. Each uses what is convenient to justify their own views, ways and environment. In other words they make God over in their own image instead of changing to suit His will.

NeverL0ved said:

If no one can trust what they believe themselves without Jesus intercession, then why is Christianity splintered with belief's? One God does not equal many conflicting belief's.

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This is some sort of association fallacy. Just because one being perfectly knows a certain bit of information, it does not follow that everyone will know it perfectly.

Resha Caner said:

Mmm. So your idea is that if one loves someone, it means they will never criticize or try to change them? If so, I wouldn't agree with that.

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Oh, I wouldn't say that. It's just that I would prefer to use some different methods - some I see as, hm, "less deceptive".
I don't know which ones would be more effective overall, but I try to stay within the bounds of my conscience.

Yes, I understand. There will always be those who will remain unconvinced. That's true of any idea, no matter how good. I'm not seeing anything that negates what I said.

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Hm. Even before I left last night - it was quite late on my side - this very thought crossed my mind.
No, I don't think you understand, and I don't blame you for that. It's one of the deepest part of the worldview that you are part of.

You cannot see any such a relationship as one of equals. You as a Christian, regardless of whether you think yourself as a "forgiven sinner" or a "sinless new creation", have to consider yourself correct in your faith. That's the very point of Christianity: have faith, and be "right" because you have faith.

So even in a relationship that you would call "true friendship", there is always a difference, an important difference. There is one who has "the truth", and one who does not. One who "has a message they feel needs to be heard" and one who might or might not be "convinced".
Even in such a "true friendship, community or caring"... there is the "ulterior motive of selling something". You care, and thus you want to share what you think you have and your "true friend" is lacking.

But if that really was a "true friendship", a relationship of equals, or at least of equal valuing and caring... this would either have to be reciprocal, or irrelevant.

You would have to admit to being open to be "convinced". You might be the one who "imitates", who is critizised or corrected.
Or you (both) might acknowledge that a "true friendship" can exist even with such differences.

Can you do that, as a Christian, someone who thinks that "Jesus is the Truth"?

NeverL0ved said:

"Why should I believe what you believe, to believe in Jesus?"

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I am of the opinion that Jesus died 2000 years ago and most of what is attributed to him by the gospel writers is much less than credible.