Struggles with Calvinism

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 11, 2019

So unambiguity is not a sign of truth then , at least not always ?

setst777 · Nov 11, 2019

Dave L said:
How do you disprove any of this with scripture?

The entire Bible disproves Calvinism, but I will quote some Passages in answer to your question...

Unlike what Calvinism teaches, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

God himself pleads with us to repent and to remain remain faithful.

Luke 13:34 (WEB) 34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, like a hen gathers her own brood under her wings, and you refused!

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’"

God only changes your heart after you first repent and believe:

“A new heart and a new spirit” is defined as regeneration – a new creation that is accessed only by a repentant faith.

Ezekiel 18 (NIV) Bolding mine… 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Potter and the Clay....

In Jeremiah 18:2-11 (the Passage Paul used in Romans 9), God (the Potter) purposes to form into a vessel of honor only those who repent. We must repent first. . . .

Jeremiah 18:2-11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. . . 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Yahweh says: Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return you now everyone from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

How a person or nation reacts in God's (Potter's) hands, will determine how God chooses to form the clay. The fact that the clay is marred in God's hands is not God's doing.

Rather, the clay itself was marred, so God formed it for destruction.

God then summarizes in verse 11 - God is telling them the responsibility is on them to repent and God would reconsider the punishment He had intended against them.

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

In other words, God does not ordain good and evil, and all that occurs; rather, a Sovereign God righteously works out His will according to His omniscience and omnipotence. God’s sovereignty, glory and perfect will is being worked out in His creation in which every person is responsible for his own choices.

Jeremiah 18 is the bases for Paul’s reasoning of Romans 9, which confirms this very thing regarding God’s Sovereignty. This reality clearly shows the indescribable depth of God’s Sovereignty, Wisdom and Foresight, which is unlike any human sovereignty in that a Sovereign God is able to work out His perfect will and plans while at the same time allowing mankind free will choices.

Same in the following verses:

2 Timothy 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”
20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore cleanses himself from latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

God forms a vessel into something honorable and sanctified but only if they cleanse themselves.

So, God, as the Potter, will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Scriptures declare throughout the OT and NT that God chooses to have mercy on those who repent, and chooses to harden those who obstinately keep refusing His grace.

If God has to harden someone heart so they can no longer respond to His grace, then that means that, IF God had not hardened their hearts in judgment, they could have believed.

That is why Paul, at the end of Romans 9, sums up why God had punished Israel – because they pursued righteousness not by faith but by works. This is actually how Scripture itself teaches us regarding God’s Sovereignty from Genesis to Revelation.

In this way, a Sovereign and Holy God remains an impartial and righteous judge who genuinely loves righteousness and genuinely hates sin, rather than a God of Calvinism who forms people for damnation and others for salvation, which would make God responsible for all the good and evil in the world. As we have seen, by one of Calvinist’s strongest proof texts, Romans 9, this is, thankfully, not the case.

God shows no partiality

1 Peter 1:15-20 (NIV)
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Unlike what Calvinism teaches,

God does not form or cause anyone to sin. Rather, each person sins by his own choice.
And God always puts the responsibility on each person to remain faithful to receive life - OT and NT.

James 1:13-16 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 11, 2019

His student said:
The idea of "decrees" comes over to us from the ages of kings and has found it's way into theology of most groups and not just the Calvinists.

Do you mean the origin is not from heaven. Not from the Father. That would fit here so far, this sub-topic part of this thread.

Halbhh · Nov 11, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

The Calvinist ideas that are different from the rest of Christianity: those are just some ideas about some scriptures, but they seem to directly contradict plenty of other scriptures, so even those in reformed churches should not overly put too much faith in those particular Calvinist theories see.

Nothing to worry about in a way. No one is saved by esoteric theology understandings, not one nor the other.

It helps to read Isaiah chapter 55.
Isaiah 55 ESV

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

setst777 said:
Yet, as Calvinism teaches. . . According to God's Purpose, the Sovereign God formed man to be ungodly so he could be glorified by condemning them to eternal torment. Condemning those He formed to be condemned pleases the Calvin God.

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 206

“Since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.”

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause than he is pleased to exclude them….”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“If we cannot assign any reason for [God] bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.”

Since I am not a follower of John Calvin I don't really care what he taught. Though I do have his Institutes and his commentaries and read them sometimes.

But your premise is incorrect. God created Adam very good. He didn't cause Adam to sin but he did. All future generations from Adam came from natural generation not by creation. God does not create or form men in order to damn them. We are damed in Adam and by our own rebellion.

setst777 · Nov 11, 2019

twin1954 said:
Since I am not a follower of John Calvin I don't really care what he taught. Though I do have his Institutes and his commentaries and read them sometimes.

But your premise is incorrect. God created Adam very good. He didn't cause Adam to sin but he did. All future generations from Adam came from natural generation not by creation. God does not create or form men in order to damn them. We are damed in Adam and by our own rebellion.

Exactly. What I quoted about what Calvinism teaches does not mean that is what I believe.

God surely created Adam very good. Even so, God - who knows the beginning from the end, and causes all things to occur just as He planned - formed Adam with a disposition that would sin just as he did. If that were not the case, then God's plans would have been thwarted by His creation.

His student · Nov 11, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Do you mean the origin is not from heaven. Not from the Father. That would fit here so far, this sub-topic part of this thread.

Of course not.

I'm talking about why we use that particular word for God's sending forth of His Word to accomplish exactly what He intends to accomplish.

Theology - like every other difficult and intricate endeavor of men from medicine, to plumbing use words that are meant to sum up teachings that would perhaps take many volumes to do justice to every time we talked about them - without those special words.

For instance - doctors can't be giving a long dissertation on how the heart works just to tell people that it is in "atrial fibrillation". Hence the specialized word that conveys all that that entails is used as short hand.

In our case the word "decree" encapsulates many concepts ranging from first chapter of Genesis through the Isaiah passage through all of the N.T. passages dealing with God's Word.

But - true to our expectations of the theologically shallow - someone will always say something like, "show me the exact passage that says in the exact words that God decrees all that takes place".

There's not much a person can do in cases like that but walk away from that person. It would take a very long post indeed to catch them up on things they should have thought through long before opening their mouth to comment on the subject of sovereignty and free will.

There's a lot at stake when one opens his mouth too often here in a forum like this where weaker brothers and sisters are reading along.

"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." James 3:1

People who haven't thought a difficult subject like this through backward and forward several times would be much better off to ask questions and then sit back and read the answers from someone who has than to open their mouth to teach on the subject.

Robin Mauro · Nov 11, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

I know nothing about Calvinism, but it seems to me your question/struggle is about predestination? Who is chosen and what that means is quite a mystery. Maybe some are chosen first. I started a year long Bible study many years ago with that very question in mind, and came away, with at least part of the answer, from reading about Moses. I came away thinking that God chose people who's hearts are toward him, as Moses heart was. And Moses was chosen for a special purpose; to lead. So maybe chosen has a more specific definition than we understand. The Israelites were chosen, but God was ready to do away with them a couple of times because they were stiff-necked and bent toward evil. But Moses interceded for the people, as Christ did for us, although some of them were still destroyed.
But I am writing to tell not to cry, because if you are crying for the unsaved, you can trust that God loves them even more than you do and wants them to be saved. I believe the scripture that God is patient and wants everybody to be saved. You can trust in that. So pray. Pray for those you are concerned about and trust God, that He put this concern on your heart, and put these very people in your heart and your life for this very reason. Trust Him, as a child trusts. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. His love is so much greater than ours and what little love we have, is from Him.
Praise God and welcome to the family! Please remember to read the Word for yourself and He will make you wiser than your teachers, and don't forget, man's wisdom is limited.
And, I do not believe for one second that God takes delight in anyone's everlasting punishment. God loves His entire creation.

Emsmom1 · Nov 11, 2019

Robin-thank you for this "But I am writing to tell not to cry, because if you are crying for the unsaved, you can trust that God loves them even more than you do and wants them to be saved." That helps.

The Righterzpen · Nov 11, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.

Lot of people find this difficult.

Emsmom1 said:
I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see?

If you wanted to go play in the traffic in the middle of the freeway; would you think I loved you if I let you do that? If I let you play in the traffic; you could get killed. So, would I show more love to you to go get you out of the traffic, or to let you play in the traffic?

Well, God's love is demonstrated in a similar manner. If He doesn't constrain and guide you away from sin; is that really love?

(This is a different issue than "He sends the rain on the just and the unjust.")

Emsmom1 said:
He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Ezekiel 33:11

Emsmom1 said:
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane

Something about my reaction to the concept of being atoned for makes me stop and pause; both of my knowledge of self as having been unwilling and also (some where in the mix usually entails) conviction of being undeserving!

Emsmom1 said:
(I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).

Keep reading, keep studying. It may take years, but your questions will be answered.

reformed05 · Nov 11, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Why can't they fall away, exactly. Show me biblical proof of that?

How can you tell if they were never saved? What do you look for, I mean where is your biblical proof?

And you do realize we aren't so much interested in what "reformed teaches" as we are what the bible says on the matters. So please explain how you knew someone who fell away, was never saved to begin with. I mean beyond assuming it because Calvinism told you to assume it...where does the bible verify it?

We "place" ourselves in Christ when we choose to accept him. What you are claiming is we were forced/placed into Christ when we can't possibly be in Christs if we don't choose to willingly. As in, I "placed" this class of water on the table, and the water nor the glass had anything to do with getting there, or, in so many words, I forced it to be where it now is..

Where does the bible verify that we are "placed" in Christ and we do not place ourselves in him willingly by doing as he expects of us, as in taking the action that is, in turn, actual "faith"?

You aren't describing "faith" there, but "ability" to have it, two separate things.

Question is why is it really distorted? It's not the fault of Gods word, and honestly from what I just saw, it appears to be getting distorted right here. Again, faith is not an ability, an ability is ability and faith is faith.

Jesus is able to "make" us do anything he likes but he simply doesn't work that way. Please show me the scripture to which you refer there, and lets see what it says?

side note 1), it's best to quote the scriptures you refer to, if for no other reason it can save the time of the other party asking for the quote and you having to repose.

2) I hate to assume here but after seeing these things play out so many times in the past, and also to save a little time, please answer all the questions posted in this or any post for that matter, so we can know you are able to back up what you claim. If you cannot/will not do that, the inaction will speak for itself..

Look forward to your reply.

first understand that what I say is not meant to change your beliefs or anyone elses. I am merely answering your questions from my point of view. I consider myself Reformed and I don't know if there is a difference between that and Calvinism and don't care. I was a free will Christian for the first twenty years post salvation. I came to Reformed 20 years ago by reading reputable authors in the subject and comparing what they said with scripture. I have never been to a Calvinist church and the only other Reformed person I actually know is my brother. I understand from reading this thread that some people have had bad experiences in Calvinist churches and even here I have seen professes Calvinists spout things are not accurate. So, please don't lump us all together.

How do I know someone who has fallen was never saved? The parable of the souls in Matthew 13:18-23 shows that not all people who claim salva

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

Dave L said:
I don't read long posts over a paragraph or two. But I know from your poston what you are getting at. So I reply;

Butch5 said:
But you read volumes about Calvin?

He posts them over 1 or two paragraphs, and half the posts here are more than 2 paragraphs, so something isn't right. Now I need to go back and see how long the post is entailing my last unanswered question.

Butch5 · Nov 11, 2019

His student said:
Most Reformed or Calvinist assemblies state the doctrine of decrees very clearly.

Unfortunately the tendency of Calvinists to stretch logic to an uncalled for degree (as with limited atonement and unconditional election for instance) - leads non Calvinists to feel that they need to take a stand against all thing Calvinist. Which, of course is a silly thing to do. Many different groups have things that are correct and things that are wrong.

The idea of "decrees" comes over to us from the ages of kings and has found it's way into the published theology of most groups and not just the Calvinists.

The decree of a sovereign king was the sending forth of His word to accomplish what He wanted accomplished.

That's exactly what we see God doing in the Isaiah passage I quoted.

“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11

The reformers such as the before mentioned Westminster Assembly felt that the decrees of Kings are exactly that kind of thing.

In addition - the Word of God tells us in no uncertain terms that that "word" or "decree" in constantly involved in everything that happens including our very being.

That being the case - they put that concept right out front in their statement on decrees.

But obviously decreeing "all things" leaves God open to the charge that He also is the author of sin. To counteract that charge being hurled at God they made sure that it was clear that He was not the author of sin and that He did not force people to sin - even though He decreed that their chosen sin come to pass.

Some here have called that Calvinist "double speak". But in fact it is simply presenting both sides of the issues involved - from the sovereign God side to the free will man side.

Some here want to just deal with the one side of the teaching from the Word of God. But neither the writers of the Westminster Confession nor I feel that we have that luxury. We must present the full council of God when formulating a doctrinal statement even if it means suffering the slings and arrows of people who haven't thought the issues through.

When we do so we are charged with using "double speak", "logical contradictions" and the like. The use of false straw man arguments also abound as we have seen here in this thread.

But I'm still sure that the scriptures clearly teach exactly what the Westminster Confession teaches in the section dealing with God’s decrees. They said it quite well and it has stood the test of time for close to 4 centuries.

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

That's the clear teaching of the Word of God.

That's a logical contradiction. Also, the passage from Isaiah doesn't show that God has ordained everything that comes to pass.

hedrick · Nov 11, 2019

I see the OP is still reading the thread, so I'm going to say something.

Christian experience and Scripture give us two things that are not easy to reconcile:

Christ comes to use through grace. Like the OP, many of us are aware that we didn't choose him on our own. He chose us: "You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name." (John 15:16)
We are responsible for our choices.

If you accept that God is omnipotent, at some level he is responsible for the fact that the world has good and evil. No doubt his plans take everything into account. I'm close to Calvin on this. But I don't think this requires us to believe -- as Calvin suggests a couple of places -- that God set out to damn anyone. Scripture talks a lot about God choosing us, but I'm not aware of anyplace that it says that God chose someone for damnation. Not even in Romans.

In my opinion, "decision theology" and Calvinism both go too far, in opposite directions. It's not all about us and our choices. But God also hasn't set out to damn anyone.

I'm close to Luther here, although I think my position is common in the PCUSA.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

I agree that the Isaiah passage does not show that God has ordained everything that comes to pass.

I also don't see the parable of the Sower having anything to do with this myth of "they were never saved to begin with".

For the life of me, I don't see how one comes up with these notions.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

Hedrick, how would you define "decision theology"?

twin1954 · Nov 11, 2019

setst777 said:
Exactly. What I quoted about what Calvinism teaches does not mean that is what I believe.

God surely created Adam very good. Even so, God - who knows the beginning from the end, and causes all things to occur just as He planned - formed Adam with a disposition that would sin just as he did. If that were not the case, then God's plans would have been thwarted by His creation.

Calvinism is a broad umbrella. It covers a multitude of beliefs. I identify as a Calvist here because it is close to what I see in the Scriptures.

There is a difference between knowing and determing. God our Savior knows the future because He has determined the future. Whatever is outside of God's purpose and ordination must control God. That which controls God is His God.

Man wants to have libertarian free will. That is actually the default position of man. "I will have my way" "I will determine my destiny. ". Man's free will is as free as a frog in a snakes belly. It can jump around all it wants but can't escape its confinement.

Adam was the representative head of all his progeny. When he fell we all fell. That is why infants die. Rom. 5

God is never thwarted. Paul told Timothy that Adam wasn't deceived. Adam knew exactly what he was doing.

He chose to die with Eve rather than live without her. He wanted her more than he wanted God.

God is not a God of plans. We plan but it rarely goes according to our plans. Those who make plans don't have a clue what may happen.

God is a God of purpose. He purposed to glorify Himself in the salvation of those He has set His love upon. He gave them to the Son and He, Christ Jesus the Lord, actually saved them.

God knows the end from the beginning because He has determined the end from the beginning. If that were not the case then God would be reacting to what men do, not the other way around.

Kenny'sID · Nov 11, 2019

Dave L said:
Only these 3 views of salvation are possible. Again stated simply. 1) God alone saves people. 2)people save themselves with God's help. or 3) people save themselves without God's help. Only one is true. The other two present a false gospel and a false Christ.

Since Dave doesn't read posts over 2 paragraphs, I'm going to very loosely assume, unless I missed his reply, that's why my 3 sentence post, each separated by a space went unanswered. So I'm posing it again to be sure it wasn't just skipped as I suspect. I suspect he just didn't answer because half the posts here are over two paragraphs, and Dave himself posts them more than two paragraphs, so something doesn't sound right. I go through all that because something seems odd about the skipping posts comment, but mostly because the question had to do with posting false/tricky information in order to back Calvinism, and that needs to be pointed out, beyond doubt for new Christians or seekers of true and proper doctrine.

2 questions) Who is it that saves themselves with Gods help there as you claimed? I ask because I have no idea who claims that, yet you call it one of the only three possibilities to salvation. Also, do you know from where those so-called 3 possibilities originated?

hedrick · Nov 11, 2019

Tra Phull said:
I agree that the Isaiah passage does not show that God has ordained everything that comes to pass.

I also don't see the parable of the Sower having anything to do with this myth of "they were never saved to begin with".

For the life of me, I don't see how one comes up with these notions.

The parable of the sower may have some bearing, although it's not a complete answer. In the parable God sows on a variety of soils. His word goes to everyone. Where it falls on good soil it prospers. On bad soil it doesn't. The parable doesn't actually say how the good and bad soil got to be that way, which is why it's not direct support or opposition to Calvinism. But still, the overall impression is that people are in some sense passive. God calls them, and they respond according to their nature. But we're not told why those particular people are good soil, and others aren't.

Tra Phull · Nov 11, 2019

When Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" - He was speaking to His disciples, right? The 12, including Judas Iscariot. Isn't this true? Would anyone agree that to make that verse apply to Soteriology, and to future Christians in general, is unfounded?

Struggles with Calvinism

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