Salvation Cannot be Lost

I said:
"You cannot prove your opinion. The Bible teaches very clearly that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes in Christ."
It sure is. In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life. Your view is contrary to what Jesus said.

Phil W said:

I'm sorry to read that.

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I'm not surprised.

If you believe you are or have been saved, who would you ever forsake the God that saved you?
I just can't fathom that.

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I can't fathom your statement above. Could you re-phrase, for clarity?

Because they still worked iniquity after a supposed conversion.

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The only "supposition" is in your mind.

Again, why would Jesus say to them, "I NEVER knew you" if they had EVER believed?

Why can't you answer this?

A false repentance from sin, or none at all, will result in Jesus' words about never knowing them.

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No. Never believing will result in Jesus telling them "I NEVER knew you".

It is the difference in our description of "believer" that divides us.

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My description comes straight from the Bible.

Where does yours come from?

If He hadn't died, I would not have been enabled to be baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.
I would still be the old man with it's fleshly nature, and sins, and against Godliness.

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You still ARE that man.

How can someone claim eternal life if they are NOT following Him?

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I'll answer this with a question that should be easy to answer, or at least understand.

In the prodigal parable, did the son admit that he was STILL his father's son or not?

If this question seems difficult to answer, here are some hints:

17“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

Do you see the answer now?

At no time did the son not view his father as his father.

If I am a sinner, I am not following Him and have no eternal life awaiting me.

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Your opinion does not count. What the Bible says is what counts. And you haven't, because you CAN'T, defend your opinion.

Phil W said:

But of course, they are not the "works" Paul is alluding to.

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This is the works that Paul was alluding to:

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

S.ilvio said:

Your words. Faith alone is not enough...

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Show me then. Just the BEST single verse that says so.

Ha. You don't have any to quote, and I know that you know that as well.

Here's a primer for you to meditate on:

Salvation:

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, pleasec count the verses that mention works along with faith.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

In the Hebrew, those who believe, must have and by definition a continual, ongoing, true belief in Jesus

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What do you mean by "in the Hebrew"? Are you referring to Hebrew grammar or what, exactly?

Here's the deal, though. The NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew. And Greek is much more nuanced.

The present tense has NO CONCEPT of continual ongoing action in order for the results of such action to be true. That's just a blatant twisting of Greek grammar.

And the Bible uses the aorist tense in a lot of verses about believing for salvation.

Paul used it in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and in Rom 10:10.

AND as Jesus says His Family is those who HEAR the Word of the Father AND DO His Word.

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So finish your thought. Did He say hearing and doing His word are requirements for salvation? No, He did NOT.

Thus, if the one believing gives up, does not endure, turns away , they no longer fit the description Jesus Gives

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If you were correct, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE SAID in Joh 10:28 -

I give them eternal life, and as long as, or IF, or ONLY IF they KEEP ENDURING IN THE FAITH, shall shall never perish.

Why don't you wonder WHY Jesus didn't SAY that?

He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Meditate on that.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

.... yet note when it is written ".... WILL HAVE.... " or "... WILL BE ... "

.... and so on....

ALL Scripture is truth, and must all be true without one being true and another false.

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Your post makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to point out.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It only takes ONE.

James 2:1 (KJV) - My brethren have not the - Blue Letter Bible

https://www.blueletterbible.org › kjv › jas
James 2 - My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory ... Jas 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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Apparently you have not even considered the context for this verse.

Here is v.18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

James' point is that in order to demonstrate ("show me") their faith, they must have works.

There is nothing in James 2:14-26 that speaks of how to be saved, or how to maintain salvation. It is all about showing your faith before others.

It's all about rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15

I said:
"Your post makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to point out."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I did a gazillion word searches when I had the time, and even when I didn't have the time - as Yahuweh Provided... it was all HIS WORD, and HE IS ENLIGHTENING by HIS WORD.

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My statement stands. I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

"will be" and "will have" both are found in Scripture.

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OOOOKKKKK. Did I ever suggest or say that these words aren't in Scripture? Again, what is your point? Do you even have one?

Seeing everywhere they are in Scripture, and reading the previous and subsequent chapter (i.e. context) , Yahuweh Willing, is very enlightening.

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Again, OOOKKKK. So, please try to get to your point.

There is a sharp contrast though, between those who think they know, and those who realize they don't know. One seeks the truth, and one does not seek the truth.

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That's exactly what I've found with Arminians. They think they know the truth, and even when clearly and plainly worded verses are shared with them, they STILL hang on to their own opinions and ideas.

Those who have given up seeking the truth, thinking that they know or any other reason, don't know anything yet.

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Even those who think they have the truth but are in error don't know anything yet.

I suppose you have been trying to make a point.

I said:
"So finish your thought. Did He say hearing and doing His word are requirements for salvation? No, He did NOT."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Why is it so difficult to catch on to what His Word Says? What is the blocking factor ?

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What in the world are you talking about??

I asked a simple and straightforward question. And this is all you can do in response?

Your question doesn't come close to answering my question.

The point is that you KNOW that you cannot provide any evidence to support your claims. You KNOW that there are NO verses that say plainly that hearing and doing His word are requirements for salvation.

Yet, you still believe that anyway. Why?

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to ...

https://biblehub.com › john
God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the ... As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him.

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Again, what is your point here?

It seems you are having quite a difficult time in making a point.

Why do you think John 3:17 supports your opinions?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

(continued) ....
48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.…

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"48"? Isn't there a book and chapter with your "48"? Why didn't you include the entire citation? It seems you're just trying to be difficult.

Apparently you do not understand the words "does not receive My words".

So, let's start with John 3:15,16,18
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. {these verses are about eternal security}
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. {this verse is about eternal security}

On to John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. {this verse is about eternal security}

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. {this verse is about eternal security}

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” {these verses are about eternal security}

People will be judged on the fact that they refuse to believe what Jesus said and promised.