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If you study as you said I can't imagine you don't read more than two paragraphs
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Struggles with Calvinism
- Thread starter Emsmom1
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It says he made it to dishonor from the same lump he made another to honor.
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Right. Jacob and Esau. The Israelites to honor and the Edomites to dishonor.
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His student
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I agree.
It's not the word tulip that counts for anything. It's the concepts that the different letters signify that matter.
But whether tulip is actually used or just the related concepts are discussed - there will be people who will argue every point and every concept.
In fact there are those here who hate so called Calvinism so much that they will argue against the comprehensive decrees of God even though the sending forth of the Word of God is clearly presented in the scriptures as the "modes operandi" of God vis a vis creation and His ongoing providential involvement with that creation at the smallest to the largest level.
Clearly all things were created by His Word, and for His Word, and in His Word all things exist including we who live and move and have our being in that Word.
In a massive understatement for the ages, John tells us concerning the Word incarnate, "Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25
“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11
And yet someone will always ask us to, "show me where in the scripture it says that God decrees everything".
And to top it off - such ignorant people actually believe that we are making doctrines up.
It's enough ignorance of scripture and what it teaches on this subject that it makes me want to pull my hair out.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Not necessarily argue.
As with ANY point, with ANY message, EVEN if it is from an apostle, or as if from an angel of light,
it is subject to TESTING BEFORE ACCEPTING. That's why seekers of Yahuweh after proving tulip wrong won't go back to it nor argue about it - there's no need to.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
hmm... go figure that one out , eh?
Is there any doctrine in this forum that is not made up ? (or rather, which ones... ? ) A few are from God and from Scripture and from experiential knowledge of His Working with men abiding with Him.
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StillGods
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this makes you appear lazy Dave?
you ask people for proof, they provide it scripture reference and explanation - but it's too long for you to read! lol..
this makes you appear lazy sadly.
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Not lazy, but efficient. I speed read (scan) looking for keywords. Check them out and move on.
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His student
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Yes - the doctrine of the decree of God concerning everything that happens in creation is clearly taught without ambiguity in the Word of God.
“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11
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Yet, as Calvinism teaches. . . According to God's Purpose, the Sovereign God formed man to be ungodly so he could be glorified by condemning them to eternal torment. Condemning those He formed to be condemned pleases the Calvin God.
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 206
“Since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.”
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause than he is pleased to exclude them….”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“If we cannot assign any reason for [God] bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.”
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
I find the longer the posts, the more the sin. (there are of course exceptions) But, this is actually written in Scripture also.
And when there are too many errors to respond to in one post, oftentimes it just does not get replied to.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
COOL! Nice Surprise... (I think and hope)....
I don't remember seeing this stated as a doctrine by anyone.
(Obviously, it does not work out for all of man's denominations - ambiguity or unwarranted differences abound without number, don't they ? )
So who is UNambiguous in their assembly ? (few, yes there are some, but few)
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
As for me and my house, we just read the Scripture (and test any message this way), and let God show us. That's what He Promised in a few places, and that's what He did/ does.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Doesn't God in His Word with no ambiguity clearly Reveal to His children Why He "reprobates" people specifically and generally ?
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His student
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Most Reformed or Calvinist assemblies state the doctrine of decrees very clearly.
Unfortunately the tendency of Calvinists to stretch logic to an uncalled for degree (as with limited atonement and unconditional election for instance) - leads non Calvinists to feel that they need to take a stand against all thing Calvinist. Which, of course is a silly thing to do. Many different groups have things that are correct and things that are wrong.
The idea of "decrees" comes over to us from the ages of kings and has found it's way into the published theology of most groups and not just the Calvinists.
The decree of a sovereign king was the sending forth of His word to accomplish what He wanted accomplished.
That's exactly what we see God doing in the Isaiah passage I quoted.
“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11
The reformers such as the before mentioned Westminster Assembly felt that the decrees of Kings are exactly that kind of thing.
In addition - the Word of God tells us in no uncertain terms that that "word" or "decree" in constantly involved in everything that happens including our very being.
That being the case - they put that concept right out front in their statement on decrees.
But obviously decreeing "all things" leaves God open to the charge that He also is the author of sin. To counteract that charge being hurled at God they made sure that it was clear that He was not the author of sin and that He did not force people to sin - even though He decreed that their chosen sin come to pass.
Some here have called that Calvinist "double speak". But in fact it is simply presenting both sides of the issues involved - from the sovereign God side to the free will man side.
Some here want to just deal with the one side of the teaching from the Word of God. But neither the writers of the Westminster Confession nor I feel that we have that luxury. We must present the full council of God when formulating a doctrinal statement even if it means suffering the slings and arrows of people who haven't thought the issues through.
When we do so we are charged with using "double speak", "logical contradictions" and the like. The use of false straw man arguments also abound as we have seen here in this thread.
But I'm still sure that the scriptures clearly teach exactly what the Westminster Confession teaches in the section dealing with God’s decrees. They said it quite well and it has stood the test of time for close to 4 centuries.
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
That's the clear teaching of the Word of God.
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