What would happen to the creation/evolution debate...
- Thread starter pitabread
- Start date
That depends what you mean by 'an encounter with God'. If you mean 'something that makes it very hard to deny him', then it's trivially true, by definition.
In my experience, 'deny' generally isn't the right verb; most ex-believers I know say they slowly came to realise that they no longer believed. One said it happened quite suddenly, but she had atheist friends, so she may have absorbed their viewpoints without realising it.
The point is that when you stop believing, there's no-one and nothing to deny, except having the belief itself. When you stopped believing in Santa Claus, did you deny Santa Claus, or did you just realise that he wasn't real?
Upvote
0
- Apr 19, 2013
- 3,564
- 1,546
- 44
- Country
- Uruguay
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Except if you see Santa flying to your house and giving you presents, which is the same level of proof some christians have, but with God interviening in their lifes, after that denying God is impossible, is like denying something you are seeing with your eyes. People who stopped believing even if they were pastors or something never had an encounter with God or the holy spirit, there is no denying it after experiencing some of the things God can do. Its something to be treasured having the privilege of knowing for certain about God because God did something to you.
Upvote
0
- Apr 19, 2013
- 3,564
- 1,546
- 44
- Country
- Uruguay
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
You don't know about the existence of God that is specific... but also, you don't know that spiritual things can only be discerned only by people 'alive' or with his spirit, and no amount of words someone can tell to you is going to make you understand because you need first to br alive with the spirit of God, and like the bible says this is crazyness for the people who don't believe or are spiritually dead (not having their spirit alive with the spirit of God).
There is lots of stuff, like when Jesus said people would have water of life, this is something a christian can get and gives you satisfaction and calms your spiritual hunger when he gives it to you, or that the holy spirit is very gentle, and sensitive, and caring, and after tasting how he is, you can't think of a person in the universe better than him, because he is so nice. And you can't know this if you didn't had any experience with him, is like someone telling you a person is nice, but you don't meet the person, you can only imagine things.
But probably this stuff appears to unbelievers as something to be made fun of, or that comes from crazy or deluded people. So i don't know why i'm trying to tell them to you.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Apr 19, 2013
- 3,564
- 1,546
- 44
- Country
- Uruguay
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I had several experiences with God, one was in church, i was there after not going to church for a while and having some problems, and the holy spirit 'grabbed my heart' with strong supernatural love, it was so strong i rejected it at first but it felt so good, i'm feel bad i rejected it, but it was my shame that provoked that rejection anyway i'm telling, this is something as real as someone grabbing you in the arm kind of real, but spiritually since God is spirit, now, try to make fun of my 'hallucinations' as you would call this, but maybe someone would want to experience something like this and me telling this helps them, who knows. Good luck.
Upvote
0
Like I said, if you define 'an encounter with God or the holy spirit' as something that means it is impossible to stop believing, then it's simply true by definition. It's a 'No True
All the ex-believers I know say that, at one time, they believed that they had a personal relationship with God and he intervened in their lives. That's why they say they were believers. I never believed that, despite a Christian upbringing, and that is why I say I was never a believer.
By your logic, you can't ever be certain you've really had a 'True Encounter'™ with God or the holy spirit until your dying day, because - like the ex-believers I know - you might really believe you've had a 'True Encounter'™ or relationship with God or the holy spirit, only to find you stop believing at some later time, meaning it wasn't really a 'True Encounter'™.
Upvote
0
The fact that you understand that it could be interpreted as 'hallucinations' suggests that you're aware of the problems with believing things that have no manifestation outside your mind. Hyper-vivid or hyper-real mental experiences are not uncommon, and can be religious or revelatory. 'Sensed presence' and 'Third Man' experiences are also not uncommon and remarkably easy to induce. All food for thought.
But, of course, a True Believer™ will be certain that they are exactly what they feel like; unlike a 'phantom limb' experience, they have no awkward material absence to account for.
That's twice you've mentioned that people might make fun of your experiences - although you must be aware that many people have experiences of a similar nature, whether religious or other. Have people made fun of you when you told them, or do you just think they might?
Upvote
0
OK, so I can't understand the 'things of God' unless I already believe, in which case I would know them...
But the holy spirit is the nicest person ever.
It's hardly a persuasive argument, but I appreciate your honesty.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jan 29, 2017
- 12,920
- 13,372
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Private
I get all that believe me. What I'm saying though is that a personal, subjective experience is not something that can be necessarily conveyed to someone else in the same manner the original individual experiences it.
You have to understand though, I've talked to people that made the same claims as you about feeling like they had a personal relationship with God. Only they later fell out of that belief.
If you expect your own testimony to be held up as compelling reason you think God exists, then I have to treat their testimony as the same. Otherwise, I might as well be as dismissive of your own experiences as you are being of theirs.
Upvote
0
- Apr 19, 2013
- 3,564
- 1,546
- 44
- Country
- Uruguay
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Because of my experiences with God, i'm believing for life, it can't be other way, experiences with God can be as authentic, real, and convincing as any other, i really doubt someone who experienced God will deny him later, is like denying you have eyes while you were reading something.
Upvote
0
- Apr 19, 2013
- 3,564
- 1,546
- 44
- Country
- Uruguay
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
There is lots of truth we were ignorant about and can't appreciate unless we come close to God.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Feb 4, 2006
- 46,773
- 10,981
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Others
If you get to them young enough. Young people have little experience in critical thinking.
Upvote
0
That's an empirical question. We have data.
A Creationist view on human origins has held fairly steady since 1982 (top line). There are fewer "don't knows" (not shown on the chart).
Upvote
0
- Jan 29, 2017
- 12,920
- 13,372
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Private
It held moderately steady into the 90's, but it's been in decline for the past decade+. Just performing a weighted average trendline based on the Gallup data shows a downward trend. And this is confirmed with other polls (e.g. Pew Research) also showing a decline over time.
When you look at the demographics, it's understandable why creationist beliefs are trending downward, since creationists make up the older cohorts (e.g. Boomers). As older cohorts pass away, the proportion of creationists in the population declines.
There are also polls from other countries (e.g. Australia, Canada) that also point to a decline.
There really isn't anything I've seen that suggests that creationism is either holding steady or growing. All indicators point to decline and that we can expect this decline to continue over time.
Upvote
0
Doing a simple linear regression test, there is in fact no statistically significant decline. Their next poll might change that.
Australia is a very different place.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jan 29, 2017
- 12,920
- 13,372
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Private
Care to show the math? (The chart you posted was missing values, so I'm curious if you used every poll between now and 1982.)
Also, the next gallup poll already happened earlier this year. The results were 40% creationists. You can see the aggregate results year-over-year here: Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Similar threads
