What did Adam and Eve not know?

JackRT

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v4-5 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

v7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

what exactly did Adam and Even "not know" before eating the fruit. The serpent tells them if they eat the fruit they will know the difference between good and evil... do we accept this? After they ate it, they knew they were naked. being naked is neither good/evil yet Adam and Eve knew they were naked after eating the fruit and before it seems they did not. To me this seems to be about either shame or the lust of being naked that they experienced. They always knew their bodies weren't covered but something was different after eating the fruit that uncovered bodies meant something else.

so how does Adam and Eve knowing they were naked connect with them knowing good and evil? if they didn't know good and evil how were they to know that following God was good and following the serpent was evil?


I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dagerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."
 
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JackRT

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Since they are unable to tell the difference between good and evil this information can only be told to them but they have no critical thinking ability to make the right choice themselves.

That is a crucial point. Before eating of the fruit they were like little children. Capable of making mistakes certainly, but sin requires the ability to discriminate between good and evil.
 
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Norbert L

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so how does Adam and Eve knowing they were naked connect with them knowing good and evil? if they didn't know good and evil how were they to know that following God was good and following the serpent was evil?
The apostle Paul does talk about "putting on the whole armor of God" and the reason for it is, "that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil" Ephesians 6:11-18.

When the armor Paul is referring to is also likewise representative of clothing, it just may be that Adam and Eve figured out they were mortal and lacked the faith necessary to secure an eternal home with God.
 
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Yarddog

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v4-5 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

v7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

what exactly did Adam and Even "not know" before eating the fruit. The serpent tells them if they eat the fruit they will know the difference between good and evil... do we accept this? After they ate it, they knew they were naked. being naked is neither good/evil yet Adam and Eve knew they were naked after eating the fruit and before it seems they did not. To me this seems to be about either shame or the lust of being naked that they experienced. They always knew their bodies weren't covered but something was different after eating the fruit that uncovered bodies meant something else.

so how does Adam and Eve knowing they were naked connect with them knowing good and evil? if they didn't know good and evil how were they to know that following God was good and following the serpent was evil?
The story of Adam and Eve is an allegorical story which is about the Jews accepting obeisance to the law as their means of justification. Knowledge not faith.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 3:20
because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

The Tree of Knowledge represents the law of Moses. The Apple is man's desire to be justified through his own works. God condemns Adam to work the soil which refers to man's works which produce nothing good.

The Tree of Life represents Jesus Christ whom we are free to eat the fruit of and live forever. Faith.

Through Abraham, the first Hebrew, came righteousness through faith, yet, his heirs did not believe and looked back to Egypt in the desert, after seeing all of the miracles that God had done to bring them toward the promise land. By accepting the law they rejected the righteousness through faith and accepted works.

Romans 3: 21
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
23
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
24
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God.

26
for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
27
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.

28
We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Yes, before the Jews accepted the law, in the desert, as a means of justification God gave them Jesus, the Tree of life, the Passover. It was this which set them free from Egypt yet they looked back as Lot's wife looked back upon Sodom. They ate from they Tree of Knowledge, in the desert, after having the Tree of Life, Jesus, given to them.
 
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fhansen

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v4-5 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

v7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

what exactly did Adam and Even "not know" before eating the fruit. The serpent tells them if they eat the fruit they will know the difference between good and evil... do we accept this? After they ate it, they knew they were naked. being naked is neither good/evil yet Adam and Eve knew they were naked after eating the fruit and before it seems they did not. To me this seems to be about either shame or the lust of being naked that they experienced. They always knew their bodies weren't covered but something was different after eating the fruit that uncovered bodies meant something else.

so how does Adam and Eve knowing they were naked connect with them knowing good and evil? if they didn't know good and evil how were they to know that following God was good and following the serpent was evil?
They knew that following God was good because He put that in their hearts. But they would still need to learn and confirm it for themselves, as it turned out, which presumably they eventually did; we don't know. But we're all given the opportunity here in this world to learn the same thing, and so return to the God that they basically forsook.

Coming to know their nakedness was a matter of shame, which was the offspring of the pride within them that overrode the command that God had given them. Gen 2:25 tells us:
"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

In their innocence, as it should be, they were no more ashamed than a small child of their nakedness. The human body isn't bad; everything God created was good. But the act of disobedience of God, for any part of creation, is a gross anomaly, to be out of sync with the natural order of things, to separate oneself from truth/reality, to be at odds in some manner with God, with one's fellow man, with the rest of creation- and with ourselves. It is to sin-and a major paradigm shift then occurred in their world. They would need experience in this brave new world effectively cut off from its Creator, together with grace, in order to eventually come to learn of their error and of their need for God, with His hand reaching down to save them-to save us. The basis of the New Covenant: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Adam & Eve already knew right from wrong; the product of the tree had nothing to do with that. But by acting to determine right and wrong for themselves they had effectively dismissed God-as their God, becoming their own "gods". That's the world we're born into, with man lacking "the knowledge of God" that Jesus came to reveal and restore, with man lacking intimate communion with and subjugation to this God, which is the right and just order of things for man. Man was made for communion with God and his whole world is upside down without it, without Him. Apart from God man is spiritually dead, which is why he needs to be "born again" or "born from above", which occurs as man is reconciled with God, and the relationship reestablished, with God enthroned in man's heart again.

The knowledge of good and evil means that man had now come to meet, to experience, to know, evil, the first instance of which was his own disobedience of God, which would open the door for all the other evil/sin that would follow in the world he would find himself in, a world where man's will now reigned for all practical purposes. Prior to their act, goodness had no separate identity, because there was nothing to contrast it with; everything was good. Now they knew good and evil, evil being anything outside of or in opposition to God's perfect will. The Hebrew word used in those passages for "knowledge" is most often used to describe knowledge obtained by experience, such as to know a marital partner intimately, or to know a city by exploring it rather than just by reading about it, for example.

Their act of disobedience was essentially the sin of pride; they had considered their own opinion to be equal to or greater than God's. Pride opposes God and exalts the self by its nature. But there was a problem here; since pride isn't comfortable with being a creature, with being inferior, it opened their eyes to the fact that their own bodies declared their "creatureliness" in no uncertain terms. The "resolution" was to hide, from themselves, as well as from God, a sort of compromise that we live with to this day; such is the awkward paradox of fallen man. And a compromise that He knew we would have to live with on earth in our non-innocence such that even He fashioned clothes for His newly shamed creation, a shame that was never called for but one which would be the order of the day in this present life. And this shame speaks of a deeper, spiritual shame that we all possess. Pride and shame are both identifiers or hallmarks of the state known as "original sin", and no one is free of them in this world. We overcome both to the extent that God becomes God again in our lives, a relationship that begins with and is nurtured by faith.

The ultimate state of being would be to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This doesn't happen overnight but it's the most basic good and worthy goal of our lives-and it's the essence of mans justice or righteousness. That's what Adam and Eve didn't yet possess in Eden or else obedience, and sheer unbridled worship for that matter, would've flowed freely, of its own accord.

Man needs more than the command- the "law", IOW; man needs to come to know himself and his God-and the difference between the two. To the extent that we truly know Him we cannot help but love and obey Him.
 
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DamianWarS

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That verse always puzzled me. The only one who could see their nakedness was their spouse, and spouses are cool with that even now...
full
We also live in a very sexualized driven culture where sex means leaving nothing to the imagination with very intimate face to face encounters.

consider these biblical accounts:
  • Jacob married the wrong sister and didn't know until the day after
  • Judah had sex with daughter-in-law because he didn't recognize her and thought she was a prostitute
  • Lot's daughters got him drunk and had sex with him and became pregnant, one on one night, the other on the other night. Somehow Lot didn't know and I suspect it's because his daughters were veiled similar to Tamar with Judah and apprach him as a prostitute... or perhaps Jacob and Leah are similar because apparently the veil doesn't come off.
  • Another example is Ham sees Noah naked and Noah gets so upset about it he curses Ham's son.
We tend to scratch our heads with these things but I suspect that nakedness, even within marriage, was rare and even during sex there wasn't full exposure. Adam and Eve being completely naked probably seemed odd for the ancient Hebrew mindset because it just didn't happen. I don't know for sure the habits of ancient Hebrew couples of course but if nothing else these accounts show us something else going on than in our own culture.
 
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fhansen

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We also live in a very sexualized driven culture where sex means leaving nothing to the imagination with very intimate face to face encounters.

consider these biblical accounts:
  • Jacob married the wrong sister and didn't know until the day after
  • Judah had sex with daughter-in-law because he didn't recognize her and thought she was a prostitute
  • Lot's daughters got him drunk and had sex with him and became pregnant, one on one night, the other on the other night. Somehow Lot didn't know and I suspect it's because his daughters were veiled similar to Tamar with Judah and apprach him as a prostitute... or perhaps Jacob and Leah are similar because apparently the veil doesn't come off.
  • Another example is Ham sees Noah naked and Noah gets so upset about it he curses Ham's son.
We tend to scratch our heads with these things but I suspect that nakedness, even within marriage, was rare and even during sex there wasn't full exposure. Adam and Eve being completely naked probably seemed odd for the ancient Hebrew mindset because it just didn't happen. I don't know for sure the habits of ancient Hebrew couples of course but if nothing else these accounts show us something else going on than in our own culture.
Augustine taught that man's shame came because he was in a disordered state after the Fall. And while this was accepted, his teaching that their shame consisted in being unable to control their sexual passions, with arousal being evident, wasn't necessarily embraced. But the idea is that, in their innocence all justice/righteousness and self-control was in place, their passions and appetites were all good-but in control. Only when they consciously acted to control their own morality, overstepping or denying God's command, did they, ironically perhaps, lose control.
 
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Darkhorse

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Fair enough, but it doesn't explain the selective coverage of their figwear. Why would they be only ashamed of their privates and not their hands, feet & faces? (It was their hands & faces that carried out the Sin in question.)

Just like any other 18 month-old, my 25yo ward/daughter does not make any distinction between her privates and her [non-privates?]. (She will still get dressed when reminded.) I wonder why the shame of their sin was limited to just their privates.

While the spiritual interpretations presented here have lots of significance, there may be a physical aspect that we are overlooking: the shame over their nakedness was not from God, because He made them that way, and declared it "very good". Instead, it came from Satan, for two reasons:

1) Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, whom Satan hates. God fashioning them in His image would motivate Satan to ridicule and deride their physical form;

2) While Satan has many powers, he cannot create anything, including life. God creates, and He granted humans and other creatures the power to co-create life with Him through sexual reproduction. Satan must have been very jealous of this power, and again, sought to make it shameful and degrading, therefore focusing their shame on their genitals.

While these two points are speculative (since they are not explicitly reported in Scripture), we see a hint of them when God asks Adam: "Who told you that you were naked?" It certainly wasn't God, and there's only one other possible source...
 
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Sabertooth

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We also live in a very sexualized driven culture where sex means leaving nothing to the imagination with very intimate face to face encounters.
I understand that motivation, for today (and agree), but it doesn't fit the Genesis 3 context. (And there is some variance between different cultures.)
 
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com7fy8

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But something after eating the fruit change this and they now desired to be covered.

If the weather and environment were conducive to it, I would.

White turns to red very quickly by the equator. Perhaps God thought of this already in Eden so it wasn't a problem (plus Adam and Eve weren't white)
It had not rained, yet, upon the earth. And it seems there could have been mist watering the earth. I see the whole earth could have been one giant tropical forest or something like that, but without rain. So, the atmosphere could have been thick with moisture filtering out sunshine so it would not burn naked bodies.

But after all the moisture came down to help form the flood, then was when there were four seasons . . . possibly because then there was thinner, less buffered air, so sunshine could heat one area more than another, causing shifting of air masses to produce more varied weather conditions, and varied clothing needs.

So, I would say they did not have need for physical protection, yet, using clothes.
 
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So, I would say they did not have need for physical protection, yet, using clothes.
I believe that it happened. Their rationale just eludes me.
 
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Halbhh

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v4-5 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

v7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

what exactly did Adam and Even "not know" before eating the fruit. The serpent tells them if they eat the fruit they will know the difference between good and evil... do we accept this? After they ate it, they knew they were naked. being naked is neither good/evil yet Adam and Eve knew they were naked after eating the fruit and before it seems they did not. To me this seems to be about either shame or the lust of being naked that they experienced. They always knew their bodies weren't covered but something was different after eating the fruit that uncovered bodies meant something else.

so how does Adam and Eve knowing they were naked connect with them knowing good and evil? if they didn't know good and evil how were they to know that following God was good and following the serpent was evil?
They were in a state of innocence, trusting God. Therefore they were totally unashamed of their bodies, for example. They didn't have a concept they could misuse their bodies, for example.

The key thing in the temptation from the serpent is that Eve believes the serpent over God.

She thereby distrusts God. Trusts the serpent is right, and God wrong or lying.
(she then thinks perhaps to become her own god, as the serpent suggests she can; notice this happens to be the general attitude of many atheists, for instance)

Broken trust.

That's a break of faith.
 
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Sabertooth

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They didn't have a concept they could misuse their bodies, for example.
Such misuse couldn't take place until there were other people in the picture (unless inappropriate behavior with animals was suddenly a temptation).
 
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JackRT

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Another example is Ham sees Noah naked and Noah gets so upset about it he curses Ham's son.

I think that the best interpretation of "uncover the nakedness of his father" is that it is an euphemism for "has sex with his father's wife".
 
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Halbhh

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Such misuse couldn't take place until there were other people in the picture (unless inappropriate behavior with animals was suddenly a temptation).

3rd parties -- that is interesting to speculate on possibly, but it's too complex for me to guess much on that. One thing that comes to mind: love between a man and a woman is so good, when it's pure and total and unreserved, from the heart. Adam and Eve would have been as 'married' in the heart as it is possible to get, is my guess, because there was no evil to reduce or interfere in their love.
 
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I think that the best interpretation of "uncover the nakedness of his father" is that it is an euphemism for "has sex with his father's wife".
So to not derail this thread, see Incest?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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3rd parties -- that is interesting to speculate on possibly, but it's too complex for me to guess much on that. One thing that comes to mind: love between a man and a woman is so good, when it's pure and total and unreserved, from the heart. Adam and Eve would have been as 'married' in the heart as it is possible to get, is my guess, because there was no evil to reduce or interfere in their love.
Wonderful life they had, so perfect to start, and still so healthy later.

and NO INTERNET !


:)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But after all the moisture came down to help form the flood, then was when there were four seasons . . .
footnote to check.
Someone advised me , and it looks maybe true, that there were two seasons, winter and summer, for much of history. I don't know though for sure - and harvest time, if "autumn" was there so to speak, or if "spring time" is ever mentioned in the original Scripture ....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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While these two points are speculative (since they are not explicitly reported in Scripture), we see a hint of them when God asks Adam: "Who told you that you were naked?" It certainly wasn't God, and there's only one other possible source...
Their CONSCIENCE !
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Adam and Eve being completely naked probably seemed odd for the ancient Hebrew mindset because it just didn't happen. I don't know for sure the habits of ancient Hebrew couples of course but if nothing else these accounts show us something else going on than in our own culture.
The "Hebrew mindset" ? They , when they were faithful and obedient, believed Yahuweh's Word. It had nothing to do with anyone's culture, as far as believing Yahuweh and Knowing What He Says. When all the different cultures departed more from Him, thus people may have had trouble understanding His Word , if they turn to Him, like little children, He is Delighted to Grant them Revelation Understanding His Word, Plan and Purpose. (as Jesus gave Praise to the Father for so doing, as it was His Good Pleasure so to DO. )
 
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