Struggles with Calvinism

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I don't take it so lightly.
No one should take it lightly when so much is at stake in their own lives.

BE TERRIFIED (as written in Hebrews) lest anyone of you should fall short ..... from the deceitfulness of sin ....

WORK out your salvation (DAILY ) with FEAR AND TREMBLING (appropriate to God's Direction and HIs Word) (since we have DAILY, CONTINUALLY mmeasurably unlimited JOY AND PEACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS )
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Calvin said Paul "fell off his horse in fear" in road to Damascus experience, which has 4 accounts in NT, none of which mention Paul being on a horse.

Is that the HIGH HORSE that I am alleged as being on?

A non-existent horse that I should be on, while considering non-existent premises like "if Calvin was right"?

Michael Servetus, THE HUMAN TORCH, was as WRONG as all get-out about Trinity, but that doesn't mean it was right to BURN HIM AT THE STAKE, even though CALVIN THE MERCIFUL just proposed cutting off his head instead of roasting him to death.

This is HISTORY. Let all research the death of Servetus -and see the fruit of Calvin the Pope of Geneva
Any documentation?
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
= salvation or damnation.

It says nothing about salvation or damnation. Surely you wouldn't claim that every Israelite was saved? If God chose them and they are not all saved then this obviously is not talking about salvation. Not to mention that he doesn't say that. He plainly states what the election is about, that the elder should serve the younger. I don't see salvation in that.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Only these 3 views of salvation are possible. Again stated simply. 1) God alone saves people. 2)people save themselves with God's help. or 3) people save themselves without God's help. Only one is true. The other two present a false gospel and a false Christ.

Who is it that saves themselves with Gods help? I ask because I have no idea who claims that, yet you call it one of the only three possibilities.

Also, do you know from where those so-called 3 possibilities originated?

And to anyone who can see, did you notice how deceptively worded that was?
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't feel like going round and round throwing verses at each other for hours just to end up where we began like happens on this forum all the time. The bottom line is that each of us has been convinced in our own minds. We know the Scriptures and are well versed in the arguments. Each of us is ready to topple the other and what is the point? To demonstrate what each other knows? I think it proves otherwise. If there is anyone in this thread I would consider discussing these things with it would be @setst777. His considerations give me the most hope that there can be respectful and helpful discussion regarding both sides of this debate.

Of course you don't. I covered the skipping of questions in my first post here.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
On you first reply, no problem, I'm in no hurry.

On the second reply, I noticed you are having a little trouble with the posing format here, but I also noticed you getting it right, so I'll assume you will fix or repost your last reply to me because as it is, it only gave quotes from me and no replies. You may have already noticed that but just in case.

As I said, I think you are getting it, but if you have any trouble posting/questions, just let us know, I and I'm sure others will be happy to help.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
= salvation or damnation.
Here it is.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom. 9:1-8 KJV)


In verse 4 we see that Paul is speaking about the Israelites. He says, the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service of God, and the promises, pertain to Israel. So, this is about Israel. In verse 5 he says, "whose are the fathers" referring back to the promises. He said that it's concerning these things that Christ came in the flesh.

In verse 6 he says, it's not as though the word of God is of no effect. Then he elaborates, "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". So, in other words, they are not all considered Israel just because they are born of the man Israel, Jacob. Paul's making a distinction between two groups of people who are the seed of Israel or Jacob. He goes on to explain further in verse 7. He says, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children". Again, just because they are the seed of Abraham doesn't automatically make them the children. Remember, the Jews believed they were the heirs of the promise because they were the physical seed of Abraham. Paul is explaining that that's not so. In verse 8 he further explains, those of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

This would be devastating to a Jew. They believed that their physical birth from Abraham made them heirs of the promise of God. Paul is making the case that being born a Jew doesn't get you a spot in the Kingdom. He goes on.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.1
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom. 9:9-13 KJV)

"For this is the word of promise". Now he's getting to his point. God said He would come and Sara would have a son. Remember, Paul had just written, in Isaac your seed will be called. So, the promise was that Sara would have a son and the seed would be called through Isaac. He continues. We see that Isaac married and had children. From these two sons God once again, chose a son, Jacob. So, we see that Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. God chose Isaac. Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob. This is God's election of one people over another. But these aren't individuals being chosen. In verse 12 Paul is quoting from the Old Testament.

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. (Gen. 25:23 KJV)

The elder shall serve the younger. Esau serving Jacob has nothing to do with salvation. In verse 13 Paul is alluding to Malachi chapter 1.

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.1
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau,
and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.1
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.1
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.1 (Mal. 1:1-8 KJV)

He uses this passage to show that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. He showed favor to Jacob and not Esau. Then Paul answers the question the protester who would ask if God is unfair in this choosing.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Rom. 9:14-18 KJV)

Paul asks the question, is there unrighteousness with God for choosing one people over the other. Paul quotes the Old Testament again where God said to Moses that He would have mercy on whoever He chose to and not have mercy on whoever He chose to. He sites Pharaoh as an example of God displaying His power. God hardened Pharaoh so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?1
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:1
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Rom. 9:19-23 KJV)

Again, Paul addresses his would be detractor. If it's as you say Paul and God choses whoever He wants to, why then does He find fault? If this is the way we were made why does God find fault. Paul's reply is, who are you to challenge God? Then, for explanation Paul appeals to Jeremiah and the potter.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.1
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.1
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?1
15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up;
16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head.
17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity. (Jer. 18:1-17 KJV)

Now, remember Paul is writing this, bringing it to the attention of these Jewish believers not long before the temple will be destroyed and the Jews scattered among the nations. Paul points to the potter showing that the vessel the potter had made was marred in his hand. Israel was marred in God's hand. So, God made a new vessel. The new vessel would be those in Christ. As Paul had said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The seed was to Abraham, through Isaac and though Jacob and that seed was Christ as Paul tells us in Galatians 3

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

This is Paul's argument as to the choosing. God Chose Abraham and promised him that he would be the father of a great nation, that he would be the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed though him, and that he would inherit all of the land he could see. God chose Abraham, He chose Isaac, and not Ishmael, He chose Jacob and not Esau. It was all concerning the Seed, which Paul says is Christ.

Notice in verse 15 God says that His people have forgotten Him and in verse 17 He would scatter them before the enemy. This was about to happen when Paul wrote Romans.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:24 KJV)

Here Paul says the Gentiles are not excluded from either God's mercy or wrath.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Rom. 9:25-26 KJV)

Here Paul quotes Hosea 1

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.1
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos. 1:9-11 KJV)

Here God had told them you are not my people, but that later they would be His people again.
In chapter 2 Paul goes on to tell how Israel will return to the Lord.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.1
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (Rom. 9:27-29 KJV)

Here Paul looks to Isaiah who says that though Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant will be saved. He's not talking about saved as it's understood in the Christian Church. Look at verse 29 Sodom and Gomorrah were utterly destroyed. That's what he's alluding to if the Lord hadn't cut short the work Israel would have been utterly destroyed. However, God kept a remnant.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.1 (Rom. 9:30-33 KJV)

I think this is pretty self explanatory. The Jews rejected the Gospel for the most part and the Gentiles accepted it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I know Calvin taught universal atonement. And that affected points 4 & 5. So as a Calvinist I think 1,2,& 3 are biblically sound. But 4 & 5 need some work to make them square with point 3.
Every one of the 5 points need some work to make them square with scripture (and certainly with what Calvin believed).

I think the TULIP can be of great value in presenting good doctrine as long as the points are nuanced and not presented as many Calvinists teach them.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here it is.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom. 9:1-8 KJV)


In verse 4 we see that Paul is speaking about the Israelites. He says, the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service of God, and the promises, pertain to Israel. So, this is about Israel. In verse 5 he says, "whose are the fathers" referring back to the promises. He said that it's concerning these things that Christ came in the flesh.

In verse 6 he says, it's not as though the word of God is of no effect. Then he elaborates, "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". So, in other words, they are not all considered Israel just because they are born of the man Israel, Jacob. Paul's making a distinction between two groups of people who are the seed of Israel or Jacob. He goes on to explain further in verse 7. He says, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children". Again, just because they are the seed of Abraham doesn't automatically make them the children. Remember, the Jews believed they were the heirs of the promise because they were the physical seed of Abraham. Paul is explaining that that's not so. In verse 8 he further explains, those of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

This would be devastating to a Jew. They believed that their physical birth from Abraham made them heirs of the promise of God. Paul is making the case that being born a Jew doesn't get you a spot in the Kingdom. He goes on.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.1
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom. 9:9-13 KJV)

"For this is the word of promise". Now he's getting to his point. God said He would come and Sara would have a son. Remember, Paul had just written, in Isaac your seed will be called. So, the promise was that Sara would have a son and the seed would be called through Isaac. He continues. We see that Isaac married and had children. From these two sons God once again, chose a son, Jacob. So, we see that Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. God chose Isaac. Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob. This is God's election of one people over another. But these aren't individuals being chosen. In verse 12 Paul is quoting from the Old Testament.

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. (Gen. 25:23 KJV)

The elder shall serve the younger. Esau serving Jacob has nothing to do with salvation. In verse 13 Paul is alluding to Malachi chapter 1.

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.1
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau,
and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.1
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.1
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.1 (Mal. 1:1-8 KJV)

He uses this passage to show that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. He showed favor to Jacob and not Esau. Then Paul answers the question the protester who would ask if God is unfair in this choosing.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Rom. 9:14-18 KJV)

Paul asks the question, is there unrighteousness with God for choosing one people over the other. Paul quotes the Old Testament again where God said to Moses that He would have mercy on whoever He chose to and not have mercy on whoever He chose to. He sites Pharaoh as an example of God displaying His power. God hardened Pharaoh so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?1
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:1
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Rom. 9:19-23 KJV)

Again, Paul addresses his would be detractor. If it's as you say Paul and God choses whoever He wants to, why then does He find fault? If this is the way we were made why does God find fault. Paul's reply is, who are you to challenge God? Then, for explanation Paul appeals to Jeremiah and the potter.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.1
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.1
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?1
15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up;
16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head.
17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity. (Jer. 18:1-17 KJV)

Now, remember Paul is writing this, bringing it to the attention of these Jewish believers not long before the temple will be destroyed and the Jews scattered among the nations. Paul points to the potter showing that the vessel the potter had made was marred in his hand. Israel was marred in God's hand. So, God made a new vessel. The new vessel would be those in Christ. As Paul had said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The seed was to Abraham, through Isaac and though Jacob and that seed was Christ as Paul tells us in Galatians 3

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

This is Paul's argument as to the choosing. God Chose Abraham and promised him that he would be the father of a great nation, that he would be the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed though him, and that he would inherit all of the land he could see. God chose Abraham, He chose Isaac, and not Ishmael, He chose Jacob and not Esau. It was all concerning the Seed, which Paul says is Christ.

Notice in verse 15 God says that His people have forgotten Him and in verse 17 He would scatter them before the enemy. This was about to happen when Paul wrote Romans.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:24 KJV)

Here Paul says the Gentiles are not excluded from either God's mercy or wrath.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Rom. 9:25-26 KJV)

Here Paul quotes Hosea 1

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.1
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos. 1:9-11 KJV)

Here God had told them you are not my people, but that later they would be His people again.
In chapter 2 Paul goes on to tell how Israel will return to the Lord.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.1
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (Rom. 9:27-29 KJV)

Here Paul looks to Isaiah who says that though Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant will be saved. He's not talking about saved and it's understood in the Christian Church. Look at verse 29 Sodom and Gomorrah were utterly destroyed. That's what he's alluding to if the Lord hadn't cut short the work Israel would have been utterly destroyed. However, God kept a remnant.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.1 (Rom. 9:30-33 KJV)

I think this is pretty self explanatory. The Jews rejected the Gospel for the most part and the Gentiles accepted it.
I don't read long posts over a paragraph or two. But I know from your poston what you are getting at. So I reply;

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:21–23 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Every one of the 5 points need some work to make them square with scripture (and certainly with what Calvin believed).

I think the TULIP can be of great value in presenting good doctrine as long as the points are nuanced and not presented as many Calvinists teach them.
I found the first three points true to scripture.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Every one of the 5 points need some work to make them square with scripture (and certainly with what Calvin believed).

I think the TULIP can be of great value in presenting good doctrine as long as the points are nuanced and not presented as many Calvinists teach them.
But a lot of students recognize "tulip" at once, as being proven error, and won't consider the points if referenced that way. No need to use the word "tulip", is there? Simply present the truth from Scripture as Yahuweh gives utterance.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't read long posts over a paragraph or two. But I know from your poston what you are getting at. So I reply;

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:21–23 (KJV 1900)

If you read the post you'll see that I explain that in context. Even if you don't read the whole post you can look at that passage.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't read long posts over a paragraph or two. But I know from your poston what you are getting at. So I reply;

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:21–23 (KJV 1900)

But you read volumes about Calvin?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: StillGods
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Any documentation?

John Calvin's Letters, Volume 2 Page 31.

CLIY.—To Farel.


Reply to various questions—terrible threat against Servetus—imprisonment of one

of the leaders of the Libertins.



Geneva, \Zth February 1546.

You will be at ease regarding your brothers since you received
the letter of Claude. The messenger who brought it asked
whether mine would be ready when I returned from sermon,
after three o'clock. I replied in the negative ; but I bid him
dine at my house with my wife, as I myself had been invited to
dine with Macrin. I promised to be with him immediately
after dinner, to make a brief reply. He did not come [to my
house,] but hurried away without waiting a moment, so that I
was confounded by so sudden a departure. And yet the youth
had not appeared to me to behave badly in general. I trust
the reflection may occur to your brothers, that they have
been thus extricated from all their difficulties by the hand of
God, in order that they make the greater haste [in the work,]
It did not become the Israelites, when a way was opened up to
them, to show remissness in immediately girding themselves for
flight.' Such would have been the burden of my epistle had
not the messenger deceived me ; but I am confident that they
are burning with ardour of their own accord. I now come to your
own contests.^ If the ungodly still occasion you some trouble,
when that letter shall arrive, I have briefly expressed in it what
I think should be your mode of proceeding. I should wish,
however, the matter to be discussed viva voce ; and that, thereupon,
the result, or something like it, be committed to writing.
You will perhaps smile because I suggest nothing out of the
common, as you looked for something recondite and elevated at
my hands; but I do not wish, nor, besides, is it right to be fettered
by your estimate of me. I had rather, however, be foolish by
so writing, than by my silence lead you to suppose that your
entreaties were neglected by me. If nothing can be effected by
reasoning, and in this lawful way, the Bernese must be privately
prevailed upon not to allow that wild beast to go out of its den.
I do not sufficiently comprehend your meaning regarding a
treaty, unless it be, as I conjecture, that you are turning your
thoughts to some sort of alliance, with a view to your receiving
the assistance of the Bernese; and that just as they guard the
liberty of the people by the law of the state, so they may protect
ministers in their office by some title which commands
respect. If that be provided for, I do not disapprove of [the
alliance.] Bear in mind, that recourse should be had to those
extraordinary remedies only when there is the exculpatory plea
of an ultimate necessity. In the next place, be very cautious
lest anything you do be such as may injure your interests in
time to come. You may have greater cause of regret in that
you once received aid, and were parties to a compact, than if
you were to remain in your original servitude. Marcourt has,
without doubt, already promised a place for himself; for he
publicly proclaims that he does not regard the consent of the
brethren, since he is desired, both by magistrates and people,
and he has no doubt but that they are indignant against
you. Finally, since he prematurely discloses the wickedness
of his character, he must be repulsed by all artifices, lest he
rise to a position in which he is able to perform what he
threatens. With regard to those who gave out that we were
establishing here a permanent seat of despotism, under colour
of defence, let us suffer this rumour to spread on both sides.
Their impudence has been met with civility and mildness, so
that they ought to be ashamed of themselves.' I trust that they
will keep quiet. I seek, as far as I am able, to persuade our
friends to remain unconcerned. Servetus lately wrote to me, and
coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies,
with the Thrasonic boast, that 1 should see something astonishing
and unheard of He takes it upon him to come hither, if
it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word
for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to
depart alive,
provided my authority be of any avail.'^

More than fifteen days have now elapsed since Cartelier^ was
imprisoned, for having, at supper in his own house, raged
against me with such insolence as to make it clear that he was
not then in his right senses. I concealed what I felt, but
testified to the judge that it would be agreeable to me were he
proceeded against with the utmost rigour of the law. I wished
to go to see him. Access was prohibited by decree of the
Senate; and yet some good men accuse me of cruelty, forsooth,
because I so pertinaciously revenge my injuries.' I have been
requested by his friends to undertake the part of intercessor.
I refused to do so, except on these two conditions, viz: that no
suspicion should attach to me, and that the honour of Christ
should remain intact. I have now done. I abide the judgment
of the Council.—Adieu, brother, and most sincere friend. We
all salute you and your sisters. You will convey to the
brethren the best salutations in my name, and that of my
brethren in the ministry. May God ever bless you and prosper
your labours.—Yours,
John Calvin.

[Lat. orig. autogr.—Imp. Library, Coll. Duptiy. Vol. 102.]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin's Letters, Volume 2 Page 31.

CLIY.—To Farel.


Reply to various questions—terrible threat against Servetus—imprisonment of one

of the leaders of the Libertins.



Geneva, \Zth February 1546.

You will be at ease regarding your brothers since you received
the letter of Claude. The messenger who brought it asked
whether mine would be ready when I returned from sermon,
after three o'clock. I replied in the negative ; but I bid him
dine at my house with my wife, as I myself had been invited to
dine with Macrin. I promised to be with him immediately
after dinner, to make a brief reply. He did not come [to my
house,] but hurried away without waiting a moment, so that I
was confounded by so sudden a departure. And yet the youth
had not appeared to me to behave badly in general. I trust
the reflection may occur to your brothers, that they have
been thus extricated from all their difficulties by the hand of
God, in order that they make the greater haste [in the work,]
It did not become the Israelites, when a way was opened up to
them, to show remissness in immediately girding themselves for
flight.' Such would have been the burden of my epistle had
not the messenger deceived me ; but I am confident that they
are burning with ardour of their own accord. I now come to your
own contests.^ If the ungodly still occasion you some trouble,
when that letter shall arrive, I have briefly expressed in it what
I think should be your mode of proceeding. I should wish,
however, the matter to be discussed viva voce ; and that, thereupon,
the result, or something like it, be committed to writing.
You will perhaps smile because I suggest nothing out of the
common, as you looked for something recondite and elevated at
my hands; but I do not wish, nor, besides, is it right to be fettered
by your estimate of me. I had rather, however, be foolish by
so writing, than by my silence lead you to suppose that your
entreaties were neglected by me. If nothing can be effected by
reasoning, and in this lawful way, the Bernese must be privately
prevailed upon not to allow that wild beast to go out of its den.
I do not sufficiently comprehend your meaning regarding a
treaty, unless it be, as I conjecture, that you are turning your
thoughts to some sort of alliance, with a view to your receiving
the assistance of the Bernese; and that just as they guard the
liberty of the people by the law of the state, so they may protect
ministers in their office by some title which commands
respect. If that be provided for, I do not disapprove of [the
alliance.] Bear in mind, that recourse should be had to those
extraordinary remedies only when there is the exculpatory plea
of an ultimate necessity. In the next place, be very cautious
lest anything you do be such as may injure your interests in
time to come. You may have greater cause of regret in that
you once received aid, and were parties to a compact, than if
you were to remain in your original servitude. Marcourt has,
without doubt, already promised a place for himself; for he
publicly proclaims that he does not regard the consent of the
brethren, since he is desired, both by magistrates and people,
and he has no doubt but that they are indignant against
you. Finally, since he prematurely discloses the wickedness
of his character, he must be repulsed by all artifices, lest he
rise to a position in which he is able to perform what he
threatens. With regard to those who gave out that we were
establishing here a permanent seat of despotism, under colour
of defence, let us suffer this rumour to spread on both sides.
Their impudence has been met with civility and mildness, so
that they ought to be ashamed of themselves.' I trust that they
will keep quiet. I seek, as far as I am able, to persuade our
friends to remain unconcerned. Servetus lately wrote to me, and
coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies,
with the Thrasonic boast, that 1 should see something astonishing
and unheard of He takes it upon him to come hither, if
it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word
for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to
depart alive,
provided my authority be of any avail.'^

More than fifteen days have now elapsed since Cartelier^ was
imprisoned, for having, at supper in his own house, raged
against me with such insolence as to make it clear that he was
not then in his right senses. I concealed what I felt, but
testified to the judge that it would be agreeable to me were he
proceeded against with the utmost rigour of the law. I wished
to go to see him. Access was prohibited by decree of the
Senate; and yet some good men accuse me of cruelty, forsooth,
because I so pertinaciously revenge my injuries.' I have been
requested by his friends to undertake the part of intercessor.
I refused to do so, except on these two conditions, viz: that no
suspicion should attach to me, and that the honour of Christ
should remain intact. I have now done. I abide the judgment
of the Council.—Adieu, brother, and most sincere friend. We
all salute you and your sisters. You will convey to the
brethren the best salutations in my name, and that of my
brethren in the ministry. May God ever bless you and prosper
your labours.—Yours,
John Calvin.

[Lat. orig. autogr.—Imp. Library, Coll. Duptiy. Vol. 102.]
Here's Calvin on Servetus in his own words. "For what particular act of mine you accuse me of cruelty I am anxious to know. I myself know? not that act unless it be with reference to the death of your great master, Servetus. But that I myself earnestly entreated that he might not be put to death his judges themselves are witnesses, in the number of whom at that time two were his staunch favourers and defenders. But I have said quite enough about myself." Calvin's Calvinism Translated Henry Cole P-346
 
Upvote 0