How does “the world” see Christians.

ViaCrucis

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What passes for a lot of Christianity these days (at least American Christianity, it's all I can really speak upon) amounts to little more than a kind moralistic therapy.

I recently came across a quote from the Lutheran theologian Gerhard Forde from his work "On Being a Theologian of the Cross", which I promptly purchased:

"Since the theology of glory is like addiction and not abstract doctrine, it is a temptation over which we have no control in and of ourselves, and from which we must be saved. As with the addict, mere exhortation and optimistic encouragement will do no good. It may be intended to build up character and self-esteem, but when the addict realizes the impossibility of quitting, self-esteem degenerates all the more. The alcoholic will only take to drinking in secret, trying to put on the facade of sobriety. As theologians of glory we do much the same. We put on a facade of religious propriety and piety and try to hide or explain away or coddle our sins...."

The part in bold struck me hard, it's much as Luther himself wrote in his letter to Philip Melanchthon (an often deeply misunderstood statement),

"If you are a preacher of grace, do not preach an imaginary, but true grace. If the grace is true, you must therefore bear true, not imaginary, sins. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world."

This is the [in]famous "sin boldly" quote that is, as I said, deeply misunderstood. Luther's point here is that if we are going to be preaching God's grace, then we have to confess that we are actually sinners. There's no room to stand around pretending like we're something we're not, going around pretending as though our poop doesn't stink--because it does. We are sinners, real sinners, and that is why the Gospel is a real Gospel, with real grace, for real sinners.

But so often we like to go around pretending like we're holier than we really are. We let our sins occur behind closed doors, and then out in public we put on our masks of false piety, and with our masks we pretend as though we are religious, pious, and good and with that false piety presume to judge our neighbor, we strain at gnats, swallow camels, and pointing out the speck in our brother's eye all the while having a massive log in our own. It is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

The Scriptures say, "be sure that your sins find you out." No matter how hard we may try, no matter how much energy we put into trying to present ourselves--in the end, sooner or later, our houses of cards come falling down. Maybe that won't be found out until the Judgment, or maybe--as it often does--it will be discovered here and in this life. Those who have built for themselves gilded facades, white washed tombs, in truth they are decaying bones. Eventually all which is done in secret, all which is in the dark, is exposed to the light.

Let us, instead, be honest and repentant. We are sinners. Confess this, boldly. You are a sinner. I am a sinner. I have sinned against you, I have sinned against others, I have sinned against God. And, in truth, I will do it again. I will try not to, I don't want to--"Oh, what a wretch that I am!" "the evil I do not want to do, I do".

Do I then go and build up my facade? Construct my white citadel (which is nothing but a desiccated tomb), and put on my mask, and act like a nice saccharin, rose-eyed, moralistic somebody that somehow has gained any right whatsoever to speak condescendingly toward my fellow man? Or do I confess, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner!", repent, lay prostrate, hoping only in grace. Most certainly the latter, for I have heard, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." That God might renew in me a clean spirit, to "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly before [my] God" (Micah 6:8).

If I may steal a phrase I once read @dzheremi use once, much of what goes on amounts to little more than religious live action roleplaying.

And what is being preached is not the Gospel, the good news of mercy toward sinners, of God's love toward sinners (and intrinsic here, is that I am a sinner), but moralistic therapy: Let's all be "pure", saccharin-sweet, rosey-colored, masked automatons presenting a farce of religion in which we can pretend as though we have our lives figured out (we don't) and then tell everyone else how to be happy by selling them the cheapest, bargain-priced, nonsense.

The Christian life is not a life lived living our "best life now", it is not standing on the street corner condemning and damning others. The Christian life is a life lived in and through the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ilovechloe

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It seems we cannot avoid them - as Scripture says we cannot avoid the sinners/ adulterers / idolators
because that would require avoiding everyone practically in society.
We also cannot accept their sin as okay - in any case of sin described in the Bible. If anyone claims to be a believer, and continues to be a thief, adulterer or pervert, there is a way / procedure to follow , given in Scripture. This is as God has directed to be.
You are sinless like Jesus yourself then?
 
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Beanieboy

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It looks like seeing the leaves on the tree, not seeing what Jesus said, then explaining how to change the leaves on the tree, without making a difference other than that.

On earth, everyone is an awful person - that is "sons of disobedience" as written in Ephesians 2,
UNTIL they get redeemed.
The description from Jesus , and throughout the Epistles, of what the disciples will "look like" to others,
is important - it is actually several good tests/ ways to verify as the Bible says... but verifying that the leaves on the tree do not match what the Bible says, then thinking that changing the leaves will help, seems to be a mistake of vital importance.

It is exactly as Jesus Says - concerning the students of Jesus - "they will be known" exactly as Jesus says. Getting people TO DO some things so that they LOOK LIKE what Jesus said, does not change their nature.

My intention was to express some short comings that Christiams may need to work on. I don’t agree that all people are awful. Imperfect, yes, but there is a difference between generally trying to treat others as you want to be treated, and someone within the Church who acts like a Pharissee, going out of their way to harm others in the name of God.

I agree that it is the love of Christ and the Holy Spirit that changes people
But I think sometimes, you need to hear the truth about your shortcomings, and meditate and pray on them.

I asled for a solution because I also don’t want it to be a Bash the Christians thread, but one for edification.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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"Shortcomings" are common, and God's Word gives clear solutions for individuals and for His people in assembly of Ekklesia.

Unrepentant sin is something else entirely, and God's Word gives clear directions to the assembly for that also.


My intention was to express some short comings that Christiams may need to work on. I don’t agree that all people are awful. Imperfect, yes, but there is a difference between generally trying to treat others as you want to be treated, and someone within the Church who acts like a Pharissee, going out of their way to harm others in the name of God.
I agree that it is the love of Christ and the Holy Spirit that changes people
But I think sometimes, you need to hear the truth about your shortcomings, and meditate and pray on them.
I asled for a solution because I also don’t want it to be a Bash the Christians thread, but one for edification.
 
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loveofourlord

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Is truth a defense in this? If somebody with data to support them refuses to allow the LGBT near their families, is that being "unloving" or is it wisely exercising caution?

I ask because the data in support of this does exist.

Since so many catholics priests are showing as predators I guess we shouldn't allow any priests to be near kids, and show me evidence that it's higher in LGBTQ then any other group in socoiety.
 
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Beanieboy

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Is truth a defense in this? If somebody with data to support them refuses to allow the LGBT near their families, is that being "unloving" or is it wisely exercising caution?

I ask because the data in support of this does exist.

Then we get into another ethical dilemma: if you know the data used to say homosexuals are child molesters, and because the can’t reproduce have to recruit, has been debunked, is spreading this data knowing it has bern debunked, lying, slandering, and following the command to love your neighbor as yourself.

By demonizing,I have heard Steven Anderson preach that all gays are pedophiles (debunked data) and should be executed according to Mosaic Law. One web site said GLBTQ people are a threat to your children, your marriage, the nation, and our agenda is to bring down civilization itself. As a result, the GLBTQ people are not seen as their neighbor, but as predators, a threat, someone to fear, not love.

Then it makes everything from being in support if didcrimination to wanting the death penalty really easy.

To say you believe it’s a sin, understandable. To say the bible is clear, when even scratching ghe surface of a google search show even theologians are split and disagree, shows either ignorance about the topic, or a laziness about how one reads the bible.
To quote Leviticus when you don’t kerp it yourself, and quoting the death penalty, saying, “not my words. God’s” throws God under the bus because one doesn’t have enough guts to own their hatred that goes to a place of murder, is quite another. It is also a blantant misuse of the bible, and again in violation of loving your neighbor.
 
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ilovechloe

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Then we get into another ethical dilemma: if you know the data used to say homosexuals are child molesters, and because the can’t reproduce have to recruit, has been debunked, is spreading this data knowing it has bern debunked, lying, slandering, and following the command to love your neighbor as yourself.

By demonizing,I have heard Steven Anderson preach that all gays are pedophiles (debunked data) and should be executed according to Mosaic Law. One web site said GLBTQ people are a threat to your children, your marriage, the nation, and our agenda is to bring down civilization itself. As a result, the GLBTQ people are not seen as their neighbor, but as predators, a threat, someone to fear, not love.

Then it makes everything from being in support if didcrimination to wanting the death penalty really easy.

To say you believe it’s a sin, understandable. To say the bible is clear, when even scratching ghe surface of a google search show even theologians are split and disagree, shows either ignorance about the topic, or a laziness about how one reads the bible.
To quote Leviticus when you don’t kerp it yourself, and quoting the death penalty, saying, “not my words. God’s” throws God under the bus because one doesn’t have enough guts to own their hatred that goes to a place of murder, is quite another. It is also a blantant misuse of the bible, and again in violation of loving your neighbor.
There are plenty of web sites & facebook pages that are claimed to be "Christian", or run by "Christian" organisations where posting false & misleading stories & data about LGBTQ is a daily occurrence. The fact that it is false does not concern them a bit. Some of the sites are even involved in creating false data or stories.

When called out on it, a lot of the posters will say, oh sorry, I didnt know it was false, but this is usually a lie, because the very next day they will be posting & sharing the same information to as many people as they can, & once posted, a false post is never ever removed.

Not only do these sites spread & propagate hate, but a lot of the misleading advice they give can also be harmful if a parent misguidedly follows it with regards to their own LGBTQ children.

Most of these sites claim to be PRO Family. However, as many families have LGBTQ persons in their family, in my opinion they are decidedly anti-family.

Most of these posters will know the particular Leviticus anti-homosexual verses by heart. But if you ask them about the other 600 plus Leviticus laws, they cannot quote even one!

To have a particular view on something is one thing, however to deliberately spread false & misleading information is a far greater sin than the sin they are claiming to hate.
 
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dzheremi

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@ViaCrucis thank you for that interesting and informative post. I must admit I had heard that "sin boldly" line from Luther in the past, and not understood it in the way that you have described it. Thank you for that.

Can I ask: Does the Lutheran liturgy/mass have any point wherein the priest confesses his own sinfulness before the people? I am curious as to how what you have written is manifested in Lutheran worship. (It is part of the Coptic liturgies, as well as the daily prayer for clergy and laity alike from the Agpeya/Book of Hours, for monastics or any others who might participate in the Midnight Praises/Tasbeha, etc.)
 
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ViaCrucis

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@ViaCrucis thank you for that interesting and informative post. I must admit I had heard that "sin boldly" line from Luther in the past, and not understood it in the way that you have described it. Thank you for that.

Can I ask: Does the Lutheran liturgy/mass have any point wherein the priest confesses his own sinfulness before the people? I am curious as to how what you have written is manifested in Lutheran worship. (It is part of the Coptic liturgies, as well as the daily prayer for clergy and laity alike from the Agpeya/Book of Hours, for monastics or any others who might participate in the Midnight Praises/Tasbeha, etc.)

During the General Confession it is all of us--pastor and people--confessing together. Private Confession, of course, is also available if we want it. And, likewise, a pastor could make private confession to another pastor if they so wanted. But as part of the Divine Service the General Confession effectively "covers all bases" for lack of a better phrase.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zippy2006

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If I may steal a phrase I once read @dzheremi use once, much of what goes on amounts to little more than religious live action roleplaying.

Although this is a significant problem, I would not take it up as the central concern of Christianity. Our deepest identity is not "Sinners."

To address the OP, I would say the world sees Christians in more or less the same way it sees everyone else. I am not convinced that Christians are distinctive in our day and age (apart from certain pockets here and there).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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To address the OP, I would say the world sees Christians in more or less the same way it sees everyone else. I am not convinced that Christians are distinctive in our day and age (apart from certain pockets here and there).
THANK GOD FOR the pockets! HalleluYAH !

(there are over a million "pockets" in China (noted in other threads)...

WHY does the world see Christians "... the same way it sees everyone else" , when Jesus describes His disciples quite different?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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When called out on it, a lot of the posters will say, oh sorry, I didnt know it was false, but this is usually a lie, because the very next day they will be posting & sharing the same information to as many people as they can, & once posted, a false post is never ever removed.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen this happen on these forums. It’s as though this type of dishonesty can be hand-waved away, because they think the ends justify the means...
 
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ViaCrucis

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Although this is a significant problem, I would not take it up as the central concern of Christianity. Our deepest identity is not "Sinners."

Not "sinner", but forgiven, baptized, Christian. But no one can be any of these things except that they are a sinner, for Christ did not come for the healthy, but the sick; and as the Apostle says, "Christ came to save sinners, and I am the chief of sinners." And elsewhere, "God shows His love to us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us." For Christ died for the ungodly. God chose the foolish and the weak things of this world to show forth His power and wisdom.

God's people consists of the broken, the battered, the worn, the downtrodden, the losers, the failures, the fools, the has-beens, and the wish-they-could-bes. God, in Christ, takes the whole lot of humanity--in all its fractured, broken, and rotten state--and brings it into Himself to heal, save, redeem, reconcile it. There are no saints who are not also sinners, there are no redeemed except that we were all reprobate, our lot in the face of God's holiness is found wholly wanting and without excuse, but God rich in kindness and out of His love chose the least precious in order to make it precious.

And it is precisely the meeting place of all these things, the Cross, that we exist here. At once broken and healed, at once crushed and lifted, at once sinner and saint. There is no righteousness except Christ's righteousness. Two men went to the temple, only one went home justified, and it wasn't the one who thought himself already righteous. And so: Baptizatus sum, I am baptized. Baptizatus sumus, we are baptized. That's what we are.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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loveofourlord

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The longer I am on this forum, I am more and more grateful I lost my faith.

hehe I will admit it's a bit of a headache listening to their bad arguments, not sure why I try othe then I love science and learning and hope to educate heh.
 
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Freodin

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I don't know about "the world".
I guess as an atheist, a secularist, a humanist, I count as being "of the world" in Christianese... but I would never assume to speak for "the world". I can only speak for myself.

There are Christians who I'd say are nice people. There are Christians who I'd say are jerks.
But the most - perhaps the only - problem with Christians as Christians I have with those who believe that they are doing something wrong if I don't see them as jerks.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't know about "the world".
I guess as an atheist, a secularist, a humanist, I count as being "of the world" in Christianese... but I would never assume to speak for "the world". I can only speak for myself.

There are Christians who I'd say are nice people. There are Christians who I'd say are jerks.
But the most - perhaps the only - problem with Christians as Christians I have with those who believe that they are doing something wrong if I don't see them as jerks.

You have labelled yourself rather than insisting upon being an individual that does not fit into the box of a label such as secularist, atheist and humanist. If you tell me you are those things then I will assume you believe certain things that secularists , humanists or atheists agree upon. In that regard you have told me you do in some way speak for "the world" as a secularist, humanist and atheist and not only for yourself.
 
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Freodin

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You have labelled yourself rather than insisting upon being an individual that does not fit into the box of a label such as secularist, atheist and humanist. If you tell me you are those things then I will assume you believe certain things that secularists , humanists or atheists agree upon. In that regard you have told me you do in some way speak for "the world" as a secularist, humanist and atheist and not only for yourself.
Even as someone who agrees enough with other people to claim some kind of "group label" for myself, I cannot claim to "speak for" any of those.

I can also label myself "someone who is capable of speaking English".

I guess that means I speak for you. Right?
 
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