What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

Hawkins

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Both proposed histories of the initial Septuagint say that it was translated by Jews.

A lot of your post has information I’ve never seen in any of my readings about this history of the LXX. Do you have academic sources for it?

Such as?

LXX is called LXX for a reason. It's a number related to 70 or 72 persons. Why don't you just provide your explanation of why it is called LXX?
 
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All4Christ

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Such as?

LXX is called LXX for a reason. It's a number related to 70 or 72 persons. Why don't you just provide your explanation of why it is called LXX?
There are two proposals - one with Ptolemy ordering for 72 elders from the Jewish tribes to do the translation (rounding down to 70) and one where it says that 70 Jewish scholars did the translation. Both explanations say they were Greek Jews, not just Greeks.

Besides that part - The rest of your post had a lot of claims I hadn’t seen from academic sources.
 
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Hawkins

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There are two proposals - one with Ptolemy ordering for 72 elders from the Jewish tribes to do the translation (rounding down to 70) and one where it says that 70 Jewish scholars did the translation. Both explanations say they were Greek Jews, not just Greeks.

Even when I assume that you are right. It's not part of the Canon. The Jewish Canon has nothing to do with the 70 or 72 persons who translated the OT. You need to look into what the Jewish Canon itself is. The rest is irrelevant.
 
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All4Christ

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Even when I assume that you are right. It's not part of the Canon. The Jewish Canon has nothing to do with the 70 or 72 persons who translated the OT. You need to look into what the Jewish Canon itself is. The rest is irrelevant.
If you write something down as fact, it should be backed up from sources, or at least have sources available.

I’m well aware of the canonical history of the Jewish scripture, which is not as straightforward as some may think. However, that’s not the point of my request for sources.
 
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Hawkins

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If you write something down as fact, it should be backed up from sources, or at least have sources available.

I’m well aware of the canonical history of the Jewish scripture, which is not as straightforward as some may think. However, that’s not the point of my request for sources.

Well you can counter what I said. I read from many resources sometimes it's difficult to sort out the sources. How many books do you have in your personal library. I myself have more than 1000 books in regards to Christianity. You can keep on attacking my credibility if that's what you want.

But the bottomline is that. Can you state clearly that whether the LXX is the same as the Jewish Canon back then, that is, in Jesus' dates and before? I feel that you are dodging this question by the tactics of attacking my credibility.
 
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All4Christ

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Well you can counter what I said. I read from many resources sometimes it's difficult to sort out the sources. How many books do you have in your personal library. I myself have more than 1000 books in regards to Christianity. You can keep on attacking my credibility if that's what you want.

But the bottomline is that. Can you state clearly that whether the LXX is the same as the Jewish Canon back then, that is, in Jesus' dates and before? I feel that you are dodging this question by the tactics of attacking my credibility.
I’m not dodging the question. I just requested sources since it conflicts with what I’ve read in my research and what I’ve been taught.

Here are some sources regarding the claim I made:

Letter of Aristeas for the Ptolemy origin
Denver Seminary (first digital source I found - other sources are often hard copy. Other scholarly articles says the same thing about the two theories of its origin)

ETA: I can let this go. I don’t have time to do an extensive post with resources on the subject right now. I’m not trying to personally attack you either FWIW. I just disagree with your post earlier and didn't find it to match what I’ve read and researched.
 
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All4Christ

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Well you can counter what I said. I read from many resources sometimes it's difficult to sort out the sources. How many books do you have in your personal library. I myself have more than 1000 books in regards to Christianity. You can keep on attacking my credibility if that's what you want.

But the bottomline is that. Can you state clearly that whether the LXX is the same as the Jewish Canon back then, that is, in Jesus' dates and before? I feel that you are dodging this question by the tactics of attacking my credibility.

Considering my earlier statements and your request, I feel that I should answer your question. I am providing the answer to the best of my ability at this time. Due to extenuating circumstances, most hard copy resources I have are unavailable at the moment. Most of my books are packed away in boxes for us moving.

The Septuagint was a collaborative effort over the years. The first five books a the Torah or Pentateuch were likely translated in about mid 3rd century BC. The original manuscript exists in fragments. The translation to me the Septuagint is estimated to be around 132BC in Alexandria. The books not in the Masoretic canon began to be translated in about 200AD. Note that some of these were historical documents of events that occurred around that time (eg Macabees). Most agree that the Jewish Church rejected the Septuagint around 70AD when the temple fell. That said, there were certainly categories of Scripture, such as the Law, History, Prophets, etc. The Masoretic manuscript is later than the earliest surviving manuscripts of the Septuagint. The earliest complete Hebrew manuscript is later than the Septuagint. Just as the Hebrew text has many variants, so does the Septuagint. However, as I said earlier, the codex available today of the Septuagint are more complete than full texts of the early Hebrew codexes.

The exact translation of both the Septuagint and the Hebrew translation from the time of Jesus do not exist in their entirety at this time. The canon was composed of multiple sections, some which were written later than what Jews today consider to be inspired. It was, however, the translation used by Jesus and many Jews in the Greek speaking areas.

Source from online (the only things I can use while hard copies are boxed up and unavailable. Unfortunately digital versions are often only provided if you have something like a JSTOR subscription, which I no longer have access to now that I am out of college.

The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Not true. It's compiled by the 70 or 72 Greeks by using the Jewish Bible as a reference. It has more books because originally it's for the Greek speaking Europeans to have a understanding of the Jewish religion. Canonization serves one of its purposes of guarding the Bible from being altered. Only the scribes designated by the Great Sanhedrin can publish the canonized books in Hebrew/Aramaic. The publication of LXX with its contents were not controlled, it's all up to the individual publishing agencies to maintain its accuracy. To the Jews, LXX was basically used for two purposes. It's for the Hellenistic Jews who don't read Hebrews, and for the Jews to quote verses when speaking in Greek. Instead of fabricating a translation by their own, they may choose to use LXX if the part to be quoted is properly translated.

Prove your claims.

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Bruce Leiter

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The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

My understanding is that the Apocrypha (I believe that's what you're talking about) between the OT and NT is interesting to read as history of the Maccabees, for example, but that they are not inspired because they don't agree with the accepted books and weren't written by a prophet or an apostle.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Even when I assume that you are right. It's not part of the Canon. The Jewish Canon has nothing to do with the 70 or 72 persons who translated the OT. You need to look into what the Jewish Canon itself is. The rest is irrelevant.

The LXX (an abbreviation also) demonstrates what books were compiled together as being authoritative as Holy Writings among Jewish People.


Matthew 23:35-36 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
29-36 “What miserable frauds you are, you scribes and Pharisees! You build tombs for the prophets, and decorate monuments for good men of the past, and then say, ‘If we had lived in the times of our ancestors we should never have joined in the killing of the prophets.’ Yes, ‘your ancestors’—that shows you to be sons indeed of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead then, and finish off what your ancestors tried to do! You serpents, you viper’s brood, how do you think you are going to avoid being condemned to the rubbish-heap? Listen to this: I am sending you prophets and wise and learned men; and some of these you will kill and crucify, others you will flog in your synagogues and hunt from town to town. So that on your hands is all the innocent blood spilt on this earth, from the blood of Abel the good to the blood of Zachariah, Barachiah’s son, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Yes, I tell you that all this will be laid at the doors of this generation.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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If you write something down as fact, it should be backed up from sources, or at least have sources available.

I’m well aware of the canonical history of the Jewish scripture, which is not as straightforward as some may think. However, that’s not the point of my request for sources.

The purpose of asking for primary sources is to check the accuracy of claims being made.
Along with the quotes from sources, please provide links to those primary sources.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The purpose of asking for primary sources is to check the accuracy of claims being made.
Along with the quotes from sources, please provide links to those primary sources.
?? note that a lot of sources (most in the world in fact) are often quoted, and accurately quoted, concerning claims being made,
and are entirely wrong and are leading to destruction on the "way that seems right" ... !
 
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All4Christ

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The purpose of asking for primary sources is to check the accuracy of claims being made.
Along with the quotes from sources, please provide links to those primary sources.
Which post of mine are you asking me to verify?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Well you can counter what I said. I read from many resources sometimes it's difficult to sort out the sources. How many books do you have in your personal library. I myself have more than 1000 books in regards to Christianity. You can keep on attacking my credibility if that's what you want.

But the bottomline is that. Can you state clearly that whether the LXX is the same as the Jewish Canon back then, that is, in Jesus' dates and before? I feel that you are dodging this question by the tactics of attacking my credibility.

"Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:" SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

The Apostles quoted from the LXX because it was considered to be Holy Writings. That alone demonstrates those books were considered to be what we call Scriptures.
 
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Greek Septuagint which was transcribed by Clement and Origen, two men from the Gnostic School of Alexandria.
Gnosticism is a complex term and to blame Origen and Clement of simply being "gnostics" is the lack of knowledge (or, should I say the lack of gnosis?).

Also, being a gnostic does not mean being a conspiratical changer of Scriptures, liar etc.. This is a logical fallacy.
 
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Gnosticism is a complex term and to blame Origen and Clement of simply being "gnostics" is the lack of knowledge (or, should I say the lack of gnosis?).

Also, being a gnostic does not mean being a conspiratical changer of Scriptures, liar etc.. This is a logical fallacy.
Having no faith, leaves one wandering in the dark. Not a job for those unenlightened to do a work that needs inspiration.
 
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