The nature of hell?

Light of the East

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Yes, it does sound odd. It is interesting though that when Jesus talked to the Jews about hell, they seemed to understand what He was talking about. But then we will disagree about it, and so we may need to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The reason that the Jews understood what He was saying is because He spoke of Geheena and Sheol, both of which were in the Jewish faith. Hell was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born.
 
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Alistair_Wonderland

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I know nothing about hell, despite having been told to go there some times in the past. However, I have a few ideas which are interesting, and seems to fit with God's mentality. This is all speculation, of course, but it would answer quite a few questions if it were true. I believe it is, but if you believe differently, I'm not going to fault you for it. we're both as naive about Hell as anyone else. And let's hope it stays that way.:anguished:

God doesn't send people to Hell; they ask to go there
I think Hell is only one degree off of Heaven. In both places, God gives us everything we want. Only in Heaven, we want to be with God, and let Him choose our rewards because we know He can come up with something better than we could ever imagine. While in Hell, people want to give themselves up to hatred and godlessness and hopelessness, because they hate God so much that they would rather be stuck in their own torment forever than turn to Him. Human stubbornness is a powerful thing, after all.

There are no locks on the Gates of Hell
The only lock I believe is on the Gates of Hell is the need for repentance. I see Hell as sort of a hopeless reform camp; God made it to try and turn the people within it to Him, and gives them chance after chance, even though He knows that it will be futile, because He's a loving God and that's how Love acts. The people could escape at any time, but they never will. Because they will never release their hatred.

This would also explain the torments of Hell. Punishment is made for correction and rehabilitation, not for arbitrary rules of "that's what happens". God has the torments of Hell to provide every method possible of convincing the people in Hell to repent and turn away from their own destructive urges. Although honestly, I think being torn up by your own inner evil in a Godless world is more torture than anything that Hell could throw at someone.

Hell isn't all fire and brimstone
This is more of a "mildly interesting theory" than something I actually believe. I sometimes wonder if Hell can take many forms, depending upon the person. And yes, I am thinking about Five Nights at Freddy's Ultimate Custom Night, where we find out that
the murderer of the games is being tormented in Hell for eternity by being forever hunted by crazed animatronics.
I mean, I have no real proof to base the idea on, but it would be kind of interesting if really wicked people were dragged into Hell by killer clowns, or if someone who hurt children in life was forever hunted by creepy ghost kids. I dunno. Maybe I'm a bit creepy for thinking that.

One final word
I have heard somewhere that the ancients, back before Noah, tried to create a portal to Hell, and according to ancient legends and texts, they actually succeeded. Ancient carvings reveal that they used an arch made of ten blocks of obsidian stone and lit a sacrificial fire within the arch. Many archaeologists believe that the ten-stone structure was originally designed to be fourteen stones, symbolizing the false deity Noch, but according to historical records an ancient high priest named Jardon designed the ten-stone design as a tribute to man, as the number ten was affiliated with mankind, who had ten fingers, as opposed to the Nephilim, who had twelve.
 
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DennisTate

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The Orthodox Church, and especially the monks of Mount Athos, have made it clear that such "visions" are not to be desired or necessarily believed. St. Paul warned that the devil, whose desire it is to slander God, can come to appear as an angel of light.

It is also highly interesting that in Western theology, the "visions" of seers and the like are always about hell, damnation, the angry God, and sin, whereas in the East, if there are such things, they are about the love of God. Perhaps this comes from the judicial nature of Western thought, which was highly influenced by the Roman Courtroom mentality of punishment.


Dr. George Ritchie certainly was not seeking what he was shown during his brush with death back in 1943 but what he was shown about heaven sure does fit with many scriptures.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

His Observations of the Temple of Wisdom

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. An enormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.

f. His Vision of the Heavenly City

Ritchie is then taken into outer space toward a distant city made of brilliant light - similar in description to the heavenly city in the Book of Revelation (see also Revelation 21:10-27.) This is the place where people go who have become like Jesus while on Earth - a place where love is the dominant focus of life. This is heaven he realizes; but he is not allowed to enter it. Instead, Jesus shows him the future of Earth and is told to return to his physical body. At this point, Ritchie is revived from death.

George Ritchie was shown that the souls in the hell that he was shown were not exactly stuck there.... but it seemed to him that they were free to rise up if they would forgive others and change how they think and feel toward others.

d. His Description of the Horrors of Hell

They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons - trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn't agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like - a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, "I always knew!" and "Didn't I warn you!" Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.
That last sentence that I bolded sure sounds like:
John 3
19:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
 
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Jamdoc

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The reason that the Jews understood what He was saying is because He spoke of Geheena and Sheol, both of which were in the Jewish faith. Hell was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born.

It's also the word Hell itself coming from the Norse/Germanic pagan "Hel", and Hades coming from the Greek underworld concept. As the gospel got translated and spread those words got loaned.
I think that whether Hell is eternal conscious torture, or annihilation and non existence, both are undesirable, vs being resurrected in a new creation without Sin and being in Fellowship with Christ. The exact nature of the punishment is less important than knowing whatever it is, separation from God leads to an eternal punishment, and redemption through Christ leads to paradise.
 
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Hawkins

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Some questions about hell.

Is there a hell?
What is the nature of hell?
Is it temporary or eternal?
Is it (painless) annihilation?
Is it (painful) annihilation?
Is it conscious torment?
Is God present or active in it's administration?
Who or what governs hell?
Are there natural laws of hell if God is not present?
Does he administer hell from a distance?
What are the physics of hell?
What are its natural laws?
Is there fire there?
Do people have physical bodies?
What senses are possible? Sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell?
Do people see the fire or smoke?
Do people see other people?
Can people speak? Or scream and wail?
Do people hear other people's screams?
Do people talk?
Is there an intelligible language for people in hell?
Do people remember life on earth?
Can people see heaven or earth?
Is there a surface to hell?
Can people walk?
Is there gravity?
What is the foundation of movement?
Are there angels in hell?
Is there motion?
Is there change?
Is there time?
How big is hell?
Are there three dimensions?
How tall is the space?
Is there an edge to hell?
Can one walk to the edge?
What is beyond the edge?
Are there variations in topography?
Is there water?
Are there plants?
Is there an atmosphere?
Is hell a physical or spiritual place?
Are there atoms, electrons, protons, etc?
What molecules and compounds exist there?
Are there raw materials?
Is the matter of the same nature as ours?
What forces exist in hell?
Is there dark matter or dark energy?
Can people make anything?
Can people do anything?
Can people think?
What is the average temperature of hell? Does it fluctuate?
Do people have lungs?
Do the lungs require oxygen in hell?
Is there oxygen to breathe in hell?
Are there fluctuations of intensity of the fire? Closer to the source it is stronger?
If there is an atmosphere of oxygen, is the entire air under constant and complete combustion?
What is the effect of fire on one's physical body?
How are people's bodies maintained and sustained?
What gives fuel to the fire to burn?
Is hell part of nature?
Is hell another dimension?

My question on the other hand is, why do you expect people know the details?

You may take a look how Joesphus described it. IMO, the Jewish concepts are ver closed to it really is.
 
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Der Alte

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I would like to add my 2¢ to this discussion. I note that most if not all of the standard anti-hell arguments have been offered. e.g. The word hell is not in the Bible. Hell is a pagan concept that early gentile Christians brought into the faith and so on.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs.
.....Another argument that is often used is that Gehenna does not refer to "hell" it simply refers to the valley of Geh hinnom, Gehenna in Greek, outside Jerusalem where trash and even bodies were constantly burning. That is another urban legend. There have been archaeological studies done which revealed no evidence that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump. The archaeological studies revealed that here was a valley near Jerusalem that was used as a trash dump from early 1st century BC until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. It was the Kidron valley.


 
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Der Alte

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The reason that the Jews understood what He was saying is because He spoke of Geheena and Sheol, both of which were in the Jewish faith. Hell was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born.
If it is true that "hell," "was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born." why didn't Jesus attempt to teach the Jews "the truth" and correct their allegedly pagan concept of "hell?" Instead Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" "where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.""where there will wailing an gnashing of teeth" etc.
 
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DennisTate

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If it is true that "hell," "was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born." why didn't Jesus attempt to teach the Jews "the truth" and correct their allegedly pagan concept of "hell?" Instead Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" "where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.""where there will wailing an gnashing of teeth" etc.

There are two exceptional movies out on Netflix that teach about hell..... as a state of mind.

Unbroken, Path to Redemption, is about the life of Lou Zamperini who was in a hellish state of mind until he was miraculous healed of his bitterness and alcoholism and taught to forgive his Japanese captors.



Haunted by nightmares of his horrific experiences, World War II hero Louis Zamperini meets Cynthia Applewhite, a young woman who becomes his wife. Zamperini's personal demons soon threaten to destroy his marriage -- until he hears the stirring words of the Rev. Billy Graham in 1949. Embracing his newfound Christian faith, Louis starts to turn his life around by learning to forgive his former oppressors and spreading the message of peace and love.

Unbroken: Path To Redemption - Official Trailer

Louis Zamperini is mentioned in the movie about the life of Dr. Billy Graham.

Billy Graham: An Extraordinary Journey (Official Trailer)

If we will not forgive... in the afterlife we can end up stuck with others... .who also are caught up in un-forgiveness, anger and bitterness!
 
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DennisTate

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If it is true that "hell," "was a pagan concept that began to work its way into the Jewish faith a bit before Christ was born." why didn't Jesus attempt to teach the Jews "the truth" and correct their allegedly pagan concept of "hell?" Instead Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" "where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.""where there will wailing an gnashing of teeth" etc.

I read an interesting and sobering near death experience account of what was shown to a Christian near death experiencer in Africa about what happens if we will not forgive others.

https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/emanuel-tuwagirairmana.html
Jesus took Emanuel back to heaven and showed him a beautiful city. Emanuel said this was a very beautiful city with houses he has never seen anywhere in the world. There was a lake there and he was told he could not go across it.



He was surprised to see, across the lake, some of his friends who had died in Rwanda including a Muslim. Emanuel was surprised he did not see some devout Christians with whom he had been serving God with. He asked Christ how a Muslim could be in heaven. Jesus told him that as this Muslim was dying, he called upon the name of Jesus, and Jesus saved him from hell. Then Emanuel asked him why a certain devout Christian lady who had served God with him in Rwanda was not in heaven. Jesus replied it was because of her refusal to forgive those who had refused to visit her in the hospital when she was sick. Emanuel mentioned another name and Jesus told him that the reason that person was not in heaven was that he stole money which Christians had contributed to assist the sick.

Emanuel then saw a very brilliant light across the lake. Jesus told Emanuel he could not approach the throne of God since his time to leave the Earth had not yet come.

Emanuel was then shown hell which he said was very filthy. Those in hell are made to work like slaves all the time.
 
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