Alternate Plans

There are no alternate plans as far as the love of God is concerned. He will continue loving, no matter what response is given Him.

Today I went to the Eucharist in Lichfield, a magnificent cathedral that has been proclaiming the Christian message for over 1300 years.

The Eucharist took place at the High Altar and was attended by a group of people. The theme in the address was about the totality of God's love, that we cannot do anything to make Him love us more, or do anything that would make Him love us less: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

The cathedral relies on donations but makes it a policy not to charge anyone for admission. People came through the door, men, women and children from all walks of life: believers, atheists, agnostics and they were all walking around, their eyes in awe of such a beautiful place of worship. There was nowhere that was out of bounds, no signs or railings. People could wander freely throughout the cathedral, light a candle, say a prayer, or just sit for as long as they like. This, I thought, is just what the House of God should be. A welcoming place, with doors open wide, so people can come in freely. Such is the grace and love of God, who invites all to come to Him, just as they are.

There is a very warm welcome for anyone who wants to be there. "Whosever will may come".

CLEMENT 190 AD

"All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet." "He is the Savior, not of some (only) and of the rest not" (i.e., He is actually Savior of all) "for how is He Lord and Savior if He is not Lord and Savior of all ?" But He is indeed Savior of those who believe * * while of those who do not believe He is Lord, until having become able to confess Him, they obtain through Him the benefit appropriate and suitable (to their case) He by the Father's will directs the salvation of all For all things have been ordered, both universally and in part, by the Lord of the universe; with a view to the salvation of the universe. ** But needful correction, by the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, through (by means of) the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent. - Strom. lib. vii. pp. 702-6, Cologne, 1688.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter four

FineLinen said:

Plan A=

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times seven."

This is the standard for how much we as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ are instructed to forgive our enemies! 70X7=490.

Question? Does our Heavenly Lord dwell in the same standard?

If level 491 is reached, does our Lord suspend all forgiveness credits to His enemies?

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To Peter, "Up to seven times" seemed the limit for forgiveness. And it would certainly be "going the extra mile". But forgiveness is above and beyond that.

Level 491 is like the letter of the law, which brings death. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. To even keep a record of wrongs in order to know when 490/491 has been reached is in itself unforgiveness. A wrath being stored up for #491, when our fury can at long last be visited on our foe. How can that be forgiveness?

The 490 times is NOT for the perpetrator we are forgiving, but rather for us to learn (by repetition) how to forgive WITHOUT measure. (and without measuring)

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 6:36-38
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Every day, our Heavenly Father is forgiving those whose have committed the most heinous and despicable of crimes and turning the worst of sinners into the best of saints. Though their many sins were as scarlet, they will be as white as snow.

Some of the rejects and monsters we despised in this life will be the very ones we will be living with in the next. Heaven's streets will be crowded with all manner of unworthy souls, the sins of whom will have been forgiven and forgotten and there will be perfect harmony.

There is truly no limit to the mercy of God.

Anthony2019 said:

…
Some of the rejects and monsters we despised in this life will be the very ones we will be living with in the next. Heaven's streets will be crowded with all manner of unworthy souls, the sins of whom will have been forgiven and forgotten and there will be perfect harmony.

There is truly no limit to the mercy of God.

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Oh, no! (see bold above)
I was hoping traffic jams would not be a part of heaven. - lol

Saint Steven said:

Oh, no! (see bold above)
I was hoping traffic jams would not be a part of heaven. - lol

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There won't be any road rage there. The behaviour of drivers will be courteous and saintly!

nonaeroterraqueous said:

Plan A: Keep one long-running thread about a subject open indefinitely, even if you're the only one posting.

Plan B: Saturate the Controversial Theology section with threads about the same subject, so they can't ignore it anymore.

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Plan A failed.

Plan B apparently has not

FineLinen said:

Yikes: are my eyes failing me? Is the lonely vigil by myself being invaded by a real human?
Dear Non: it is a pleasure having you drop in. Perhaps you and I (at least) can keep this thread alive for a few fleeting moments.

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"Is not the connection a very real and vital one between dying and life? So the Apostle says that 'he that is dead is freed from sin,' Rom. vi. 7, i.e., is alive to God. Must it not be that this death threatened against the ungodly is, after all, the way, however sharp, to life even for them?"

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six - emphasis mine

Saint Steven said:

"Is not the connection a very real and vital one between dying and life? So the Apostle says that 'he that is dead is freed from sin,' Rom. vi. 7, i.e., is alive to God. Must it not be that this death threatened against the ungodly is, after all, the way, however sharp, to life even for them?"

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six - emphasis mine

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This should help to dispel the false claim that the greater hope is presented as a free pass for all to enter heaven with no consequences. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Not unlike getting your children ready to go to church. - lol

"The day of death was by a true instinct named in the early church the day of birth. To teach that our training ends at death, is to say that a child's education ends with the nursery." --- Same source

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six

Saint Steven said:

This should help to dispel the false claim that the greater hope is presented as a free pass for all to enter heaven with no consequences. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Not unlike getting your children ready to go to church. - lol

"The day of death was by a true instinct named in the early church the day of birth. To teach that our training ends at death, is to say that a child's education ends with the nursery." --- Same source

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six

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"Therefore, let me ask, on what authority is the common doctrine taught, unknown to antiquity, unknown to Scripture? Who commissioned any to teach, that to die is to pass into a state beyond the reach of Christ's grace? If so, why are we told, so significantly, the story of Christ's evangelizing the spirits in prison? Why are those especially selected for evangelisation who had been in life disobedient, and had so died? Why does the Apostle tell us that the Gospel was preached even to the dead ? - 1 Pet. iv. 6, a fact obscured in the authorized version."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six - emphasis mine

"I submit that the entire history of exegesis contains no stranger fact than this persistent ignoring of so large a part of the New Testament. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series. They, clearly and closely linked, claim for Christ a saving empire coextensive with the race, or (perhaps) rather with the whole universe. This connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains the same central idea, and thus forms a link in a continuous chain. This chain begins at creation, when all things were created by Christ, who therefore, as S. PAUL implies, reconciles (re-creates) all things unto God -- Col. 1:16-20. Hence, His work is the restitution of all things -- Acts 3:21. He is Heir of all things -- Heb. 1:2. The Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life -- S. John 17:2 (see original). So all flesh shall see the salvation of God -- S. Luke 3:6. For God, Whose counsel is immutable -- Heb. 6:17,18, Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging -- S. Luke 6:27-35, will have all men to be saved -- 1 Tim. 2:4, and all to come to repentance -- 2 Pet. 3:9. He has shut all up unto unbelief, so that He may show mercy upon all -- Rom. 11:32. For (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever -- Rom. 11:36. He has, therefore, put all things in subjection under Christ's feet -- Eph. 1:22. So we are assured that God wills to gather into one all things in Christ -- Eph. 1:10. His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life -- Rom. 5:18. So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands -- S. Jno. 13:3, promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself -- S. John. 12:32. For having, as stated, received all things from the Father -- S. Jno. 3:35, all that was given comes to Him, and He loses none -- S. John. 6:37-39, but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He finds it -- S. Luke 15:4 , and so makes all things new -- Rev. 21:5."

--- To Be Continued ---

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven said:

"I submit that the entire history of exegesis contains no stranger fact than this persistent ignoring of so large a part of the New Testament. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series. They, clearly and closely linked, claim for Christ a saving empire coextensive with the race, or (perhaps) rather with the whole universe. This connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains the same central idea, and thus forms a link in a continuous chain. This chain begins at creation, when all things were created by Christ, who therefore, as S. PAUL implies, reconciles (re-creates) all things unto God -- Col. 1:16-20. Hence, His work is the restitution of all things -- Acts 3:21. He is Heir of all things -- Heb. 1:2. The Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life -- S. John 17:2 (see original). So all flesh shall see the salvation of God -- S. Luke 3:6. For God, Whose counsel is immutable -- Heb. 6:17,18, Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging -- S. Luke 6:27-35, will have all men to be saved -- 1 Tim. 2:4, and all to come to repentance -- 2 Pet. 3:9. He has shut all up unto unbelief, so that He may show mercy upon all -- Rom. 11:32. For (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever -- Rom. 11:36. He has, therefore, put all things in subjection under Christ's feet -- Eph. 1:22. So we are assured that God wills to gather into one all things in Christ -- Eph. 1:10. His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life -- Rom. 5:18. So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands -- S. Jno. 13:3, promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself -- S. John. 12:32. For having, as stated, received all things from the Father -- S. Jno. 3:35, all that was given comes to Him, and He loses none -- S. John. 6:37-39, but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He finds it -- S. Luke 15:4 , and so makes all things new -- Rev. 21:5."

--- To Be Continued ---

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

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"Thus, He comes in order that ALL men may believe --- S. John. i. 7 --- that the world through Him may be saved -- S. John. 3:17. His grace brings salvation to all men -- Tit. 2:11. He takes away the sin of the world -- S. John. 1:29. He gives His flesh for its life -- S. John. 6:51. Because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (are irrevocable) -- Rom. 11:29, He gives life to the world -- S. John. 6:33. He is the Light of the world -- S. John. 8:12. He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world -- 1 John. 2:2. He is the Savior of all men -- 1 Tim. 4:10. He destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only -- 1 Jno. 3:8, and the devil himself -- Heb. 2:14. He abolishes death -- 2 Tim. 1:10. He is manifested to put away sin -- Heb. 9:26, and thus subdues all things unto Himself -- Phil 3:21 (the context clearly shows this subjugation to be conformity to Himself). He does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades -- 1 Pet. 3:19, of which He holds the keys -- Rev. 1:18. He is the same (Savior) for ever -- Heb. 13:8. Thus, even the dead are evangelized -- 1 Pet. 4:6, and death and Hades destroyed -- Rev 20:14. All are therefore made alive in Him -- 1 Cor. 15:22. Christ finishes, completes His work -- S. John. 17:4, restores all things -- Acts 3:21, and there is no more curse -- Rev. 22:2,3. Every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him -- Phil. 2:10. The creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption -- Rom. 8:21, and every creature joins in the song of praise -- Rev. 5:13. So comes the END, when He delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then ALL IN ALL -- 1 Cor. 15:24-28."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

All together now (all together now...) All together now (all together now...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Chain of Passages - Thomas Allin

"I submit that the entire history of exegesis contains no stranger fact than this persistent ignoring of so large a part of the New Testament. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series. They, clearly and closely linked, claim for Christ a saving empire coextensive with the race, or (perhaps) rather with the whole universe. This connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains the same central idea, and thus forms a link in a continuous chain.
This chain begins at creation, when all things were created by Christ, who therefore, as S. PAUL implies, reconciles (re-creates) all things unto God -- Col. 1:16-20.
Hence, His work is the restitution of all things -- Acts 3:21.
He is Heir of all things -- Heb. 1:2.
The Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life -- S. John 17:2 (see original).
So all flesh shall see the salvation of God -- S. Luke 3:6.
For God, Whose counsel is immutable -- Heb. 6:17,18,
Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging -- S. Luke 6:27-35,
will have all men to be saved -- 1 Tim. 2:4,
and all to come to repentance -- 2 Pet. 3:9.
He has shut all up unto unbelief, so that He may show mercy upon all -- Rom. 11:32.
For (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever -- Rom. 11:36.
He has, therefore, put all things in subjection under Christ's feet -- Eph. 1:22.
So we are assured that God wills to gather into one all things in Christ -- Eph. 1:10.
His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life -- Rom. 5:18.
So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands -- S. Jno. 13:3,
promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself -- S. John. 12:32.
For having, as stated, received all things from the Father -- S. Jno. 3:35,
all that was given comes to Him, and He loses none -- S. John. 6:37-39,
but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He finds it -- S. Luke 15:4 ,
and so makes all things new -- Rev. 21:5.

Thus, He comes in order that ALL men may believe --- S. John. i. 7 ---
that the world through Him may be saved -- S. John. 3:17.
His grace brings salvation to all men -- Tit. 2:11.
He takes away the sin of the world -- S. John. 1:29.
He gives His flesh for its life -- S. John. 6:51.
Because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (are irrevocable) -- Rom. 11:29,
He gives life to the world -- S. John. 6:33.
He is the Light of the world -- S. John. 8:12.
He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world -- 1 John. 2:2.
He is the Savior of all men -- 1 Tim. 4:10.
He destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only -- 1 Jno. 3:8,
and the devil himself -- Heb. 2:14.
He abolishes death -- 2 Tim. 1:10.
He is manifested to put away sin -- Heb. 9:26,
and thus subdues all things unto Himself -- Phil 3:21 (the context clearly shows this subjugation to be conformity to Himself).
He does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades -- 1 Pet. 3:19,
of which He holds the keys -- Rev. 1:18.
He is the same (Savior) for ever -- Heb. 13:8.
Thus, even the dead are evangelized -- 1 Pet. 4:6,
and death and Hades destroyed -- Rev 20:14.
All are therefore made alive in Him -- 1 Cor. 15:22.
Christ finishes, completes His work -- S. John. 17:4,
restores all things -- Acts 3:21,
and there is no more curse -- Rev. 22:2,3.
Every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him -- Phil. 2:10.
The creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption -- Rom. 8:21,
and every creature joins in the song of praise -- Rev. 5:13.
So comes the END, when He delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then ALL IN ALL -- 1 Cor. 15:24-28."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

All together now (all together now...) All together now (all together now...)