Struggles with Calvinism

BluePearl

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

Hi Emsmom1,
You are a new believer and that is awesome news! I am sure it can be very confusing in the begining, given all the information and different teachings that are out there. I think the most important thing to do is to study the bible on your own, grow your relationship with God and let him guide you because all the different churches out there have very different views and interpret things in very different ways.

Now to answer your question, I am of the belief that God is sovereign AND has given us free will. Yes God is sovereign, he has created everything on earth with all the different genetic makeups, mathematics, cellular compositions, laws (gravity, sowing and reaping) etc. yet he has also created humans with free will. That means we ourselves make our own decisions, we decide if we believe in Jesus and follow our Lord or if we reject Him, we decide if we make a good decision or bad decision, we decide if we do a good action or a bad action. God loves all of His creation and wants the best for everyone, yet we make the wrong decisions because of all the different influences in our lives (culture, family, friends, our past, etc). The more we learn to follow Him, the more we will follow His influence and make the best choices as we move along.
 
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public hermit

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What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will?

May God bless you as you grow in the faith. I am excited for you! :)

I think your question is on point. I believe both can be true and, happily, there is a technical term for it: Compatibilism. Compatibilism asserts that both of the following are true: 1) God is sovereign and 2) humans have the ability to choose and are responsible for the choices they make.

Compatibilism isn't a very popular option because it allows the inherent logical tension between those two claims to remain in place. Traditionally, the tendency has been to resolve the tension to one side (free-will) or the other (divine sovereignty). I would say we seek to resolve this tension because we have an innate desire to understand (comprehend). We can't understand (comprehend) logical tensions. Unfortunately for us, just because we can't understand something doesn't necessarily make it false. And that's especially the case when it comes to God.

At any rate, compatibilism allows the logical tension to remain in place. There is scriptural support for compatibilism. For instance, Paul says we are to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (2nd chapter in Philippians, verses 12-13). In this one statement Paul asserts that 1) we are responsible for working out our own salvation, and 2) God is the One who enables us to will and to work. This is only one passage. There are others, but I would argue the whole of the scriptures implies compatibilism.

There is also historical precedent for not resolving the inherent logical tension of a doctrine. 1. The doctrine of the Incarnation has inherent tension in the claim that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human. We don't try to resolve that tension. We leave it in place. 2. The doctrine of the Trinity has inherent tension in the claim that God is one Essence and three Hypostases (Persons). We don't try to resolve that tension. We leave it in place. I would argue we should do the same with God's soveriengty and the human ability to choose, and do so with culpability. So, it seems to me, compatibilism is both scriptural and in line with historical precedent.

I don't know if this helps, but I didn't want you to feel like the Lone Ranger out there. I'm with you. :)
 
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fhansen

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
We have free will. That's why we hold each other morally accountable, and that's why we have a sense of justice and can experience moral outrage and righteous indignation at gross injustices committed. Because we know that people can choose not to commit them.

God can sovereignly decree that His creatures have free will, a will so free that it can oppose even His own-in His wisdom and for His purposes. You should consider this question: when God told Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it? Because Christianity is all about the human will. From Eden until Christ's advent God had been patiently educating and molding His beloved creation until we might begin to choose light over darkness, when the light is shown to us. Otherwise He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate at the beginning and avoided the centuries of often atrocious pain and suffering and victimization that resulted from and followed Adam's first sin.

It's only in this kind of world, where the realities of good and evil are ever-present before us, and the Master's not at all in plain sight, that we can be challenged and tested and refined as we struggle with choosing-between the two. The bottom-line is that everything is a gift of grace including faith. We cannot possibly believe and be saved without God. And yet we can still reject that gift, either at the beginning or at any point later on. We can refuse to be saved, or we can fail to persevere, etc.
 
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royal priest

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If living in sin is not an option, any Calvinist that falls from grace, you know, like can happen to just bout anyone who is tempted back into the world of sin and decides Christianity is not for them for whatever reason...that person does lose their salvation, so in reality, there never really was eternal salvation?

I was under the impression Calvinism taught Eternal Salvation?
Eternal life belongs to the elect. They will not/ cannot fall away. Those whom God justifies He also glorifies. If someone apostatizes then they were never truly saved to begin with.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Post 55
You have COMPLETELY mid represented what Reformed Theology teaches and not only that, you repeated it to someone who is SEARCHING as though it were absolute fact.
We do not in any way shape or form teach that we can willfully sin with impunity because we cannot loose our salvation. We do teach that we cannot loose our salvation, a it is blood bought by Jesus. We teach that faith to believe is a gift, given by God. That this faith, this ability and willingness to trust in Jesus alone for salvation is a product of regeneration, or new birth, done by God.We believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, is our teacher and guide and advocate and comforter. We believe that through Him as we learn and grow in the knowledge of His word, we sin less and less.We will never be completely sin free on this earth but it is the Holy Spirit in us that now causes us to do good works, to want to obey God. Anyone who blatantly and willfully sins without conscience or regret is showing that he has not been regenerated, even if he professes that he is. Not that He never will be but not yet.

Assuming you are speaking to me,

How can faith be a gift when it is something only we have control over/can develop? God can give us reason to have faith in him but won't decide for us we have faith in him, that's impossible with the definition of faith being what it is..

We choose to accept the plan of salvation and stay with it, and if we get tempted away from it, we have the free will to to choose to drop it and go our own way again. What if one falls away from that so-called "faith" gift you speak of, and back into sin, do they lose the salvation you are saying they cannot lose, or not?

As to: We do not in any way shape or form teach that we can willfully sin with impunity because we cannot loose our salvation.

No one is going to come right out from the onset and teach we can sin all we want ans still make heaven, but what they teach, for all intents and purposes, allows that.

Actually I have heard that claim by more than one person ...that we can be a practicing murderer, child molester, whatever, and as long as we are saved, we're good to go.
 
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Neogaia777

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
The short and simple answer is God cannot be all-knowing if He did not already know all and know all from the beginning, and from before the very beginning or from before ever making it or any of us, etc, and therefore already chose or predestined "everyone's path" not just some special "elect" only...

He loves everyone, and free will is a "point of view or perspective"... From the truly always completely Sovereign, or all-knowing from the very beginning, even from before the very beginning, from before ever even choosing to make it and all of us the way we all are, etc, our paths for us, etc, anyway, from that One's perspective, we don't really have it like He does, but, and this is the very important part, from our perspective, we do actually, etc... I've tried to explain this about a million times now, but many are just not getting it it seems, and I don't call myself a Calvinist either, haven't even really studied it all that much either, and feel no real need to, etc, but I came to the belief and realization on my own, I believe by the Holy Spirit, that God the Father cannot know all and we have true free will "from his perspective", but also that, "from ours", "we do", etc, or we all have to go about it that way anyway, regardless, cause we simply do not all He knows, and never will till we get there, etc, and that's a very good thing, that we do not know, etc, cause it means our path is still very much a very important path of "self-discovery" for us, regardless of whether God the Father already knows and already knew all from the very beginning, or before it, etc, etc, etc...

We must still make choices as if we have choice, whether we do or do not from the True Always All-knowing True Sovereign Lord God's perspective or not, it really does not matter much, not really, cause from our perspective we do, due to our not knowing, and due to our never being able to know why our choices might have already all been already made up for us already from that ones perspective or not, etc...

It is still very much still a very great and very good and very exciting journey of self-discovery and getting to know yourself regardless, "REGARDLESS", understand, still very exciting cause we don't know, etc, and just try going through your life without making choices from your perspective anyway, I guarantee you, it's quite impossible for us, etc...

I wouldn't worry about it too much unless your fully ready and prepared to tackle these things or issues right now, just try to make the best choices and decisions you can right now, and don't overthink it too much, we will all find out all the why's and how too's and what-for's when we get there in the end anyway, but probably not before then, and until then, just try to make the best decisions and choices you can, OK...?

Much Love to you in Christ man,

Be praying for you...

God Bless!
 
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His student

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Show me one passage that says God ordains the choices that men make.
That is a straw man of the first order.

By that of course you mean a scripture that says that God authors the choices men make.

There is no such passage and Calvinists do not teach such a thing. In fact both the scriptures and Calvinists say just the opposite.

God's ordaining that certain things come to pass is not the same as authoring those things and or forcing those things on men when they do not themselves choose to do them.

You are just beating a straw man over and over again.

Calvinists (and I) say that we believe certain things and do not believe certain things. Then you say that we must not believe what we say we do and that we believe certain things we say we don't believe.

A person cannot prove a negative and a person cannot defend against such unfair non sense.

Frankly, if you don't know or won't acknowledge the ongoing relationship the Bible says that the Word of God has to the creation - I can't help you with it at this stage.

As has happened several times before in the forum when dealing with nonsense - :wave:.

Pearls before swine and all that.

Anyone wanting to have a proper and fair discussion is always welcome to post to me.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Eternal life belongs to the elect. They will not/ cannot fall away. Those whom God justifies He also glorifies. If someone apostatizes then they were never truly saved to begin with.

EDITED:


That's what I was waiting for (didn't take long)

OK, please show me proof from the bible that it's impossible to fall away once saved?

Also, please tell me how you know if one was never saved to begin with?

A quick note to the OP, that will be one of those tricks I mentioned, you have to prove out any even slightly unusual claims with the bible because, in the end, feeble claims such as that are what supports their beliefs, so we musn't let them slip by unnoticed.
 
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Kenny'sID

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"Never truly saved to begin with"
Ahhh, yes, didn't take long for THAT card to be played...

And it's something they can never prove is a fact.

Devil is definitely in the details on this one.
 
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So.... blessedly, I came to Christ and thank God, managed to not have to run into the Calvinism vs. Arminianism controversy, or think about it too deeply. It just never came up. And though I do like some Reformed preachers, the details of Calvinistic theology don't interest me *that much*. It's incredibly nuanced, specific, and I've seen some people develop spiritual and emotional difficulties by thinking too much about this.

Just trust in Christ and follow Christ, with God's help, and by His grace. Fall, get up, keep going. There are Calvinists on here who I like and admire, as Christians, but the theology of Calvinism just doesn't interest me that much. If you feel safer and better staying out of it, just stay out of it. You'll be ok.
 
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Tra Phull

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Ok, got it edited -

The burning at the stake of Michael Servetus is something to be aware of. It is said that Calvin attempted to have form of death changed to having his head cut off, but was overruuled by the council. In any case, Servetus was burned Alive.
 
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reformed05

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Assuming you are speaking to me,

How can faith be a gift when it is something only we have control over/can develop? God can give us reason to have faith in him but won't d ecide for us we have faith in him, that's impossible with the definition of faith being what it is..

We choose to accept the plan of salvation and stay with it, and if we get tempted away from it, we have the free will to to choose to drop it and go our own way again. What if one falls away from that so-called "faith" gift you speak of, and back into sin, do they lose the salvation you are saying they cannot lose, or not?

As to: We do not in any way shape or form teach that we can willfully sin with impunity because we cannot loose our salvation.

No one is going to come right out from the onset and teach we can sin all we want ans still make heaven, but what they teach, for all intents and purposes, allows that.

Actually I have heard that claim by more than one person ...that we can be a practicing murderer, child molester, whatever, and as long as we are saved, we're good to go.
If you have heard people, I assume you mean Calvinist people, that we can be practicing murderers etc. And still be saved, assuming they are,then they misunderstood the theology they professes to believe. Reformed Theology does not teach that. And it is not a natural conclusion to eternal security. That is your conclusion. Reformed teaches that a truly saved person WON'T do those things and if they are doing them, as I said before, they are not really saved. It's called preservation of the saints but more accurately it means perseverance of the saints. It is God who sees through His working in them, holding us up when we stumble, that we make it to the goal post. We are not traveling this journey home in our own. God is seeing us safely Home, because He has placed us in Christ.
The gift of faith is not the same as someone gives you a present and you can take it or leave it and you now have control over it. The gift of faith that God gives is the ability to believe what the Bible says about Jesus. Who Jesus is. What He did on earth and in the cross. So the basic saving tenants of Christianity. These things are foolishness to those who are perishing(which is all of us before we believe). I know the Bible's use of the word faith has been highly distorted to mean something illusive as the name it and claim it definition. Nine times out of ten when the word faith is used in the Bible it is referring to SAVING faith. The faith that saves. It isn't a conjured up thing.
The Word says that a man will stand (in His faith) because Jesus is able to make him stand. If we c an go in and out of our salvation then the shed blood of Jesus that paid for our sins is not stable or reliable. And where do you draw the line? When are you in and when are you out?
 
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Emsmom1

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Hey- thanks for all the replies. I'm going to take a break from reading posts for now. I tried a new church today and surprise! The sermon was on anxiety, peace, and God's love. Boom. Just what I needed to hear. It helped A LOT.
It was my first church service since believing and honestly, it was pretty perfect :) It was an ENTIRELY different experience than it was before. That feeling of awe (I think that's what it was) probably fades (right?), but I'm so glad it was there today.
 
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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

If you properly studied the doctrines of grace and still arrive at these conclusions, then you don't have to believe them - they are not primary issues to fight over. I find it terrifying to relive in the worldview that everything is not in the perfect control of our God, not even our salvation. I found greater peace and comfort and joy in what you call "Calvinism."

If you believe in the perfect person and work of Christ, and that we are saved and justified by faith alone, then you are still a sister.
 
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Butch5

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That is a straw man of the first order.

By that of course you mean a scripture that says that God authors the choices men make.

There is no such passage and Calvinists do not teach such a thing. In fact both the scriptures and Calvinists say just the opposite.

God's ordaining that certain things come to pass is not the same as authoring those things and or forcing those things on men when they do not themselves choose to do them.

You are just beating a straw man over and over again.

Calvinists (and I) say that we believe certain things and do not believe certain things. Then you say that we must not believe what we say we do and that we believe certain things we say we don't believe.

A person cannot prove a negative and a person cannot defend against such unfair non sense.

Frankly, if you don't know or won't acknowledge the ongoing relationship the Bible says that the Word of God has to the creation - I can't help you with it at this stage.

As has happened several times before in the forum when dealing with nonsense - :wave:.

Pearls before swine and all that.

Anyone wanting to have a proper and fair discussion is always welcome to post to me.

This is such Calvinist double speak. I've debated Calvinists long enough to know this is what always comes. All kinds of claims made with no Scripture to back it up. There's no Straw man. I notice that you didn't address the assumed premise. But that's typical too. I find that those who hold Reformed theology make all kinds of claims, assumptions that they never prove. They simply assume that that is the case and then when someone challenges it they claim they're being misrepresented and what not.

Unless you can prove that God ordains all things like the Confession says, you have no argument,rather you have speculation. Which goes back to the other point I made that Calvinism is based on inferences.
 
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