Strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity

cloudyday2

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I'd pretty strongly disagree that all of those would by themselves show Christianity to be false. Some of them bring up interesting topics that would be worth going into; others are, well, dumb.
Which do you consider interesting and which do you consider dumb?

If we can narrow-down the list to 2 or 3 of the best reasons for disbelief then we can start a thread to debate each individually.
 
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cloudyday2

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FWIW, I edited the list to be the reasons that seem most compelling to me. Unfortunately the item numbers changed, so #2 in this list is not #2 in the original list, etc.

 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Which do you consider interesting and which do you consider dumb?

If we can narrow-down the list to 2 or 3 of the best reasons for disbelief then we can start a thread to debate each individually.
Do you want to debate things like that,

or would you simply like proof that they're wrong (or right) ?
 
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Redac

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Which do you consider interesting and which do you consider dumb?
Questions of natural evil (natural disasters, God's permissive will, etc.) are interesting, though I'm not sure exactly what direction discussions about that could go. The classical arguments for the existence of God (#19) are also interesting, though that website doesn't do the best job of representing them or why they must be arguments for deism only. There are number of others, including some of the ones you have in your post above.

Possibly the dumbest one on the list would be #12, which just asserts that souls must be made of particles, and that God would have to have used particles to make eternal souls that could go to an afterlife. But physics can't show the existence of so-called "soul particles" and therefore souls aren't real and Christianity is wrong.

That point in particular was what prompted me to disagree earlier. It's really, really stupid.

If we can narrow-down the list to 2 or 3 of the best reasons for disbelief then we can start a thread to debate each individually.
That or we could talk about a couple of your choice in this thread. Up to you.
 
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FireDragon76

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A difficult question! They were all chosen as "silver bullet" arguments, as showing fatal flaws in Christian thinking. Which doesn't mean, of course, that Christians will accept this! I would be happy as saying that any one of them could show Christianity to be false, or at least ridiculously improbable and self-contradictory.

I don't think there really are alot of so-called "silver bullets". For some Christians, their faith is incredibly robust and won't fall prone to what amounts to soundbites.

Also, I don't think self-contradiction, or rather mystery, is necessarily problematic. I look at the consequences, however, when deciding what is problematic about a given belief system.

In reality, what probably did it for me was seriously considering Pascal's Wager, only taking Pascal's thinking and applying it to lifeways beyond Christianity, and realizing that choosing Christianity as the way I was going to define my life was not some kind of obvious choice, but involved potentially compromising a great deal of personal integrity and human flourishing.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It might be interesting to find a list of the strongest reasons to disbelieve Christianity and then debate each of these reasons in a dedicated thread.

I found one list, but I don't know if this is the best list.
Eight reasons Christianity is false - Atheist Alliance International

How about instead a thread on the Eight reasons why Atheists 'should' seek to remove Christianity from the world, or some other similar vein involving not only unbelief but the political and social motive behind it that drives it ... ?

I think this would be more interesting, particularly since I'm coming to think that atheism itself isn't the main bug-a-boo; no, it's overt Anti-christianism that is.
 
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cloudyday2

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Questions of natural evil (natural disasters, God's permissive will, etc.) are interesting, though I'm not sure exactly what direction discussions about that could go. The classical arguments for the existence of God (#19) are also interesting, though that website doesn't do the best job of representing them or why they must be arguments for deism only. There are number of others, including some of the ones you have in your post above.

Possibly the dumbest one on the list would be #12, which just asserts that souls must be made of particles, and that God would have to have used particles to make eternal souls that could go to an afterlife. But physics can't show the existence of so-called "soul particles" and therefore souls aren't real and Christianity is wrong.

That point in particular was what prompted me to disagree earlier. It's really, really stupid.


That or we could talk about a couple of your choice in this thread. Up to you.
Hmmm. For me the natural evil reason doesn't resonate. Christianity probably arose from the Judaism which saw an army of light (under Michael/Jesus) fighting an army darkness (under Belial/the devil). Jesus believed that the devil was the prince of this world, so natural evil would be expected in that world view.

But apparently the problem of evil bothers many people.
 
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FireDragon76

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FWIW, I edited the list to be the reasons that seem most compelling to me. Unfortunately the item numbers changed, so #2 in this list is not #2 in the original list, etc.

I think those are generally the better arguments against Christianity. Some of the others are just dumb and show an ignorance of actual Christian beliefs. I still don't think some of them are bulletproof, though, like #4. In reality, developments like the Second Vatican Council were very important in promoting harmony between Christianity and world religions, and should not be discounted merely because religions lack absolute uniformity. After all, we don't usually think of a town having both a Burger King and a McDonald's in it being inherently problematic, do we?
 
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cloudyday2

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How about instead a thread on the Eight reasons why Atheists 'should' seek to remove Christianity from the world, or some other similar vein involving not only unbelief but the political and social motive behind it that drives it ... ?

I think this would be more interesting, particularly since I'm coming to think that atheism itself isn't the main bug-a-boo; no, it's overt Anti-christianism that is.

@2PhiloVoid , I deleted my response to your idea, because I discovered that it violated a forum rule.
 
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Redac

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Hmmm. For me the natural evil reason doesn't resonate. Christianity probably arose from the Judaism which saw an army of light (under Michael/Jesus) fighting an army darkness (under Belial/the devil). Jesus believed that the devil was the prince of this world, so natural evil would be expected in that world view.

But apparently the problem of evil bothers many people.
The problem of evil (both moral and natural) gets brought up a lot, and it can at times lead to interesting conversations, but often it does get extremely repetitive.

Did you have any particular one from your list that resonated more with you?
 
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FireDragon76

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LOL, well I already have one active warning against me for merely asking atheists how they managed to get "God" out of their psyches. What are you trying to do to me here? LOL

I agree that debating the need and the ideal methods to eradicate Christianity would be a lively discussion (until some less open-minded Christian reports the thread and the moderators are forced to delete it).

I believe violence is wrong and I don't countenance an aggressive or hostile stance. If Christianity is gone, the world will not become some kind of utopia.

Having said that, one can always become the change they desire to see in the world. Beyond that, people deserve a basic level of respect, and "eradicating" Christianity would not be unproblematic in that area.

All non-Christians can and should do in a pluralistic society is to fight for their rights to be free from having Christianity imposed upon them, and to keep our government neutral in matters of religion.

Personally, I see it as enough that I attempt to withdraw my creative energies from Christian religious organizations, as much as my complicated life allows. I think that's the best any of us can do. That and encourage a critical mindset in general that challenges the notion of traditionalism and cultural conservativism, which is the secret bastion of Christendom in our society that makes it the religious "Default". This approach is a middle way of sorts between the extremes.
 
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cloudyday2

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I believe violence is wrong and I don't countenance an aggressive or hostile stance. If Christianity is gone, the world will not become some kind of utopia.

Having said that, one can always become the change they desire to see in the world. Beyond that, people deserve a basic level of respect, and "eradicating" Christianity would not be unproblematic in that area.

All non-Christians can and should do in a pluralistic society is to fight for their rights to be free from having Christianity imposed upon them, and to keep our government neutral in matters of religion.
Most atheists would probably agree with your sentiment.
 
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FireDragon76

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Most atheists would probably agree with your sentiment.

Some seem overly hung up on discrediting Christianity as a whole, though, which is a frustrating proposition, no doubt. I'm more interested in calling out bad behaviors that violate my rights and the rights of those I am allied with (such as the LGBT community), as well as the toxic attitudes that encourage these bad behaviors.
 
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cloudyday2

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The problem of evil (both moral and natural) gets brought up a lot, and it can at times lead to interesting conversations, but often it does get extremely repetitive.

Did you have any particular one from your list that resonated more with you?
I would probably vote for #20 "because the Bible story keeps rebooting" (I feel like I am on a game show LOL)
25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God (Part 10)
 
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FireDragon76

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SkyWriting

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That's just not the way it works. What you are describing fits with neither common sense nor the criminal justice system. The original point is correct: why did God have to sacrifice Himself to appease Himself?

Part of God had to die, because nothing imperfect can ever face God.
So part of God had to die otherwise man would just vaporise when
standing before the perfect creator.

We need Jesus to forgive our imperfections.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Hmmm. For me the natural evil reason doesn't resonate. Christianity probably arose from the Judaism which saw an army of light (under Michael/Jesus) fighting an army darkness (under Belial/the devil). Jesus believed that the devil was the prince of this world, so natural evil would be expected in that world view.

But apparently the problem of evil bothers many people.
No. The story you just posted , where did you get it from ?
 
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FireDragon76

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Part of God had to die, because nothing imperfect can ever face God.
So part of God had to die otherwise man would just vaporise when
standing before the perfect creator.

This is really nonsense from Evangelicalism more than a well-thought-out Christian response.

If God is so "toxic", frankly, Heaven would be more like Hell. Who would want to associate with such a dangerous being? Nobody. Just like most people wouldn't want to live on top of a Superfund site.

Plus the traditional Christian response is that God has no parts and cannot be destroyed.
 
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Redac

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I would probably vote for #20 "because the Bible story keeps rebooting" (I feel like I am on a game show LOL)
25 Reasons We Don’t Live in a World with a God (Part 10)
Lots of little things to mention in that one, but what strikes me about it is that the argument presuposes that God's plan must be a certain way that isn't what we see in Scripture -- very presumptuous, to say the least -- and that therefore what we see in Scripture isn't God's plan. Seems circular to me.
 
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