Struggles with Calvinism

Emsmom1 said:

What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will?

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He can - the question is whether free will is the source of our salvation.

A man's free will cannot cure him even of the toothache, or a sore finger; and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul. -Augustus Toplady

What this means to you, as a new Christian, is the understanding that salvation is in God's hands alone. Good thing too, for God is more merciful than any sinner who ever walked the earth.

Your reasoning is sound and you are certainly entitled to your beliefs without someone tearing them apart, as am i incidently. I don't know why people keep insisting that Calvinists think God made people who He hates. THAT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE!! OR that we make God a monster. How would you feel if I went around posting that your beliefs make God weak. That in your system Go is only a benign and powerless being. I DON'T THINK ANY OF THOSE THINGS ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE BUT HOW WOULD IT MAKE YOU FEEL IF I WENT AROUND TELLING PEOPLE THAT?

You might get a whiff of the STRANGE FIRE of Calvinism in sermons, Sam, of course it can always be weighed against other good things you may hear. Once a Bible Church I went to had too many TULIP-fumes for my blood from the pastor, but the guy was DYING, like, had only 3 Month s to live because of cancer. He seemed to be getting good stuff that close to death

reformed05 said:

Stillgods
Personally I have never hea

Personally I have never heard a Calvinist say that God doesn't love everyone but I admit that I'm not surprised it happened. In a huge number of our visible churches the preachers teach things that are no Biblical, many pervert even basic Christology so I'm sure the same thing happens in Reformed churches. I'm sorry that happened to you and am glad you are in good place now. For exactly the reasons given above, and other reasons, I don't attend a church now. Your experience was bad but it does not represent true Reformed Theology, which of course you have no way of knowing. Just maybe not bash all of us Rformds

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thank you for your kind words.

I have done my own reading as well (I had to when encountering calvinism at that church because it was not something I had come across in over 30 years of Christianity so wanted to gain more understanding).
The pastor there gave me resources etc to read also.

My intention in this thread was not to bash all reformed folk but simply share my experiences and what I had learned in the hope it was helpful to the op.

I too have spent time outside of the organized church for similar reasons so I am very grateful now to have found a church that for the most part is ok. I hope one day you also may find similar if that is what you seek.

Emsmom1 said:

I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty.

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When God created man in His image? God guaranteed man his own area of sovereignty. Its why God granted man "volition." God is sovereign. We have our limited area for sovereignty to reflect the nature of God. If we had no sovereignty we would be no more than a toy to God.

Where Calvinists get tripped up is concerning understanding the depravity of our flesh. If you only wish to understand that the sin nature (which resides in man's flesh). Then you will believe its hopeless and being born a sinner prevents him from accepting God.

Calvinism failed to see the power of God's grace. Our soul is what was created in God's image. The Hebrew of genesis 1:27 states that God created the male and female souls "out from nothing." Being in the image of God? Its means no physical essence, but immaterial. In Genesis 2 the human body was not created like our souls were. Instead of creating -"bara" - creating the body out from nothing? The human body was not created. But God took earth (that was already been created) and "molded and formed" Adam's body out from elements found in the earth. That body in itself was without life. Its that body that the Lord breathed Adam's soul into that body. The soul gives the body life.

Adam fell. We are now all born children of Adam. Having been born with a fallen nature? The sin nature prevents our souls to be free to accept God. The sin nature in our body is like having a constant drunk. And, accepting God, like needing to walk a straight line to know God. No one born from Adam can do it.

But, God now gives grace to be saved!

That means? Grace, being power from God. That power sobers up our flesh. In that way, its enabling the soul a reprieve for a moment free of the drunk, thus allowing one in their soul (free of the drunk of the flesh) to decide what he thinks about what ever God brings his way concerning Himself. That is the drawing of God.. done by His grace enabling our souls to choose. Its does not guarantee that a soul placed under grace will choose to follow God.

I will stop right there.

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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I am sorry to hear of your struggle, but let me just say one thing that I believe you have not or will not hear and will trigger people into going crazy. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are both pagan in their origins; not Biblical. There is a third way of life not often mentioned. That is that God is a living God who interacts with His creation and the people in it. May I suggest you begin again, if you will, with your understanding of the Gospel. Here is a link to some radio programs that will help you; The Gospel, The Joy of Adam, and Negotiating with Abraham. May God bless you and rest assured, God does love you, your niece, and you won't have to rewrite John 3:16. Grace and peace.
Living God Ministries - The Gospel
Living God Ministries - The Joy of Adam
Living God Ministries - Negotiating with Abraham

You can say both Calvinism and Arminianism are pagan in their origins, or you can say the moon is made out of green cheese. Doesn't make it so.

His student said:

That's one way to look at it.

But I have found (here in the forum particularly) that it seems more likely to make men proud of their spiritual life

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I have found the same is true of many Calvinists. They seem very arrogant about their professed eternal security and perhaps that they are supposedly the chosen. Why would we be proud that we have to endure to be saved? All faith is, is leaning on God. It's not using our strength, it's letting go of our strength.

Sam91 said:

I heard something similar recently and it made me think of leaving. Up until the last few months our pastor just seemed to preach the bible as is, linking it to other parts and adding in interesting historical detail. I liked that, I couldn't identify doctrine in the well written sermons.

I heard the Pastor saying some people can never saved.. or something similar. That was the third time they'd mentioned Calvinistic teachings in a few weeks.

However, I don't particularly go for the sermons anymore. My main focus is to worship and to fellowship.

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I tend to not be able to sit under calvinist preaching -just the way I'm wired -so it was better for me to leave as I saw no point being there if it wasnt what I believed was true. The fellowship was good at the calvinist church I went to as well so it was a difficult decision to leave.
...not saying you should leave as everyone's journey is different and God might want you there like He did me for a time.

(I reckon God took me there so I could learn about calvinism)

reformed05 said:

No

Not really. Maybe if you don't try to understand what it means. That is the problem with TULIP. People just skim the surface of the acronym without investigating the meaning. The words used are archaic to our language today and to be honest, at first reading it made me cringe. But you see, you can't separate the letters and get the true meaning. If you believe T it lead to U and those two conclude the existence of L which results in I and then P. I could go through and clarify the archaic language but I know you are not interested and that is perfectly fair. I am not in the business of changing anyone's mind . I find it difficult to not correct misstatements about Reformed Theology. There are so many! Spoken with authority and it is truly unkind and completely unfair. I have spoken to others sarcastically and for this I am ashamed. But I have never ridiculed their beliefs or said what they believed was not Christian, or people should run from it, or what they believed made God evil. The horrible things I am accused of believing. Frankly I feel I am owed an apology but I know I'll never get one.

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I've already looked into it extensively, thanks. I know they are all meant to fit together. Problem is, the completed picture is worse than the parts.
I have never called anyone a heretic or claimed they weren't Christian for being Calvinist, but I have had some call me a heretic for not believing Calvinism is the gospel.

I am not going to "go crazy" hearing someone say Arminianism and Calvinism are of pagan origins, but I may ask that it be backed up.
reformed05, I have heard from many Calvinists that Arminianism makes God weak and powerless, hear that all the time, you havent said it, other Calvinists most certainly do. It's not true, just like the "pagan sources" malarkey is not true.

Emsmom 1 started this thread about STRUGGLES WITH CALVINISM. I do not post JUST FOR HER, I do not post JUST to bash reform PEOPLE, I post against the THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM of Calvinism, I post in support of free will.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

renniks said:

I have found the same is true of many Calvinists. They seem very arrogant about their professed eternal security and perhaps that they are supposedly the chosen. Why would we be proud that we have to endure to be saved? All faith is, is leaning on God. It's not using our strength, it's letting go of our strength.

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That's a matter of perspective.

Many (some Calvinists) glory in their having been chosen (even though they say, to honor what the scriptures obviously teach, that they did not deserve to be chosen - all according to their own doctrine). Many (some anti Calvinists) glory in their ability to obey the Lord throughout their life more than many others and remain saved (even though they, of Biblical necessity, profess that the good works they do are the Lord working in them to do His good pleasure).

Straw men and misrepresentation of what the other side believes and teaches abound on both sides IMO.

So does self pride.

His student said:

That's one way to look at it.

But I have found (here in the forum particularly) that it seems more likely to make men proud of their spiritual life.

That may be a nice slogan. But it simply isn't true. I loved both of my babies when they couldn't resist it at all.

But, for what it's worth, it isn't love that Calvinists say is irresistible - it's grace, the proof of love.


Right on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is our willful choices that God has ordained to take place. Your logic is flawed and you are believing your own strawmen.

It's bad logic.

God can and does preordain that the free choices of men be allowed to happen without coercion from Him. He did it with Jesus and He did it with those who chose to crucify Him.

God did not force or coerce Jesus to make the good choices He made throughout His life. But I'll guarantee you that it was foreordained that He do so.

God did not force or coerce bad men to kill Jesus. But I guarantee you that it was foreordained that they do so.

Again - your statements are not only based on bad logic that has been infected by your bias - they are clearly not Biblical as well.

I have spoken to you before on this subject.

No one said you were a Calvinist.

A seeming contradiction may well be possible. But it takes an open and unbiased mind to think it through.

People who have made up their mind to stand against anything believed by another group will not likely be able to agree with even a portion that the other group believes.

I object to several things that Calvinists often teach and I object to several things that anti Calvinists often teach.

That's as it should be whenever the scriptural facts say so.

"I am of Paul" and I am of Apollos" is not the kind of attitude that leads to a balanced view of theological things.

Often times taking some from column A and some from column B makes for a more balanced plate.

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I would suggest you look up a logical contraction. It's not my logic that's flawed it's yours. If God ordains something, it's not a choice, it's ordain. God can ordain that man has a free choice. But He can't ordain what that choice is and it still be a free choice. To claim that shows a lack of understanding of logic.

We say that a statement, or set of statements is logically consistent when it involves no logical contradiction. A logical contradiction is the conjunction of a statement S and its denial not-S. In logic, it is a fundamental law- the law of non contradiction- that a statement and its denial cannot both be true at the same time.

The Law of Non Contradiction states that a statement and it's denial cannot both be true at the same time. Thus something ordained cannot be a free choice. This is just simple logic.

reformed05 said:

Your reasoning is sound and you are certainly entitled to your beliefs without someone tearing them apart, as am i incidently. I don't know why people keep insisting that Calvinists think God made people who He hates. THAT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE!! OR that we make God a monster. How would you feel if I went around posting that your beliefs make God weak. That in your system Go is only a benign and powerless being. I DON'T THINK ANY OF THOSE THINGS ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE BUT HOW WOULD IT MAKE YOU FEEL IF I WENT AROUND TELLING PEOPLE THAT?

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I sincerely apologize if I offended you, or if I was ignorant, but don't blame me. There are many Calvinists who openly admit that they think that God doesn't let people choose, and that He creates the wicked simply to punish them. If you don't believe that, then please forgive me for lumping you with the others. I forgot that there are often many shades of grey in beliefs, and not in any way of thinking do all think exactly alike.

His student said:

That's a matter of perspective.

Many (some Calvinists) glory in their having been chosen (even though they say, to honor what the scriptures obviously teach, that they did not deserve to be chosen - all according to their own doctrine). Many (some anti Calvinists) glory in their ability to obey the Lord throughout their life more than many others and remain saved (even though they, of Biblical necessity, profess that the good works they do are the Lord working in them to do His good pleasure).

Straw men and misrepresentation of what the other side believes and teaches abound on both sides IMO.

So does self pride.

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Sadly true. In retrospect, my earlier post was perhaps a little lopsided, due to misrepresentation. Of course I still believe everything I wrote there, but I forgot that perhaps that what I perceive that Calvinists believe is not what they all actually believe, and that beliefs differ between individuals. Regardless, my argument still stands that without free will, there can be no Love (you cannot force Love, after all), but I would be a fool if I were to write off all Calvinists as believing such an oversimplified version.

Alistair_Wonderland said:

I sincerely apologize if I offended you, or if I was ignorant, but don't blame me. There are many Calvinists who openly admit that they think that God doesn't let people choose, and that He creates the wicked simply to punish them. If you don't believe that, then please forgive me for lumping you with the others. I forgot that there are often many shades of grey in beliefs, and not in any way of thinking do all think exactly alike.

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thank you for that. I am not attending any church right now and I have never attended a Calvinist church as they are hard to find in my area. So I don't really know what they are teaching and saying. The only other Calvinist I know is my brother. I came to the theology on my own after 20 years of having never heard of it and attending "free will" churches. I studied Sproul nd McArthur, Pink and Sinclair and others and checked everything said against Scripture and made up my own mind. So I guess I should just believe what I believe and not get so upset when people misunderstand. You may be right. That may be what is being taught. A professed Calvinist on this site said God FORCES people to be saved against their will and that is so far off the mark of true Reformed Theology that it is laughable. So. I'm all calmed down now.

Butch5 said:

.... If God ordains something, it's not a choice, it's ordain. God can ordain that man has a free choice. But He can't ordain what that choice is and it still be a free choice. To claim that shows a lack of understanding of logic.

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God ordains that what men will choose in certain circumstances will indeed take place.

It would only be a violation of their will if God authored their choice and assigned it to them. Calvinists are very careful to say that that is not the case.

Butch5 said:

In logic, it is a fundamental law- the law of non contradiction- that a statement and its denial cannot both be true at the same time.

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No kidding? But only you are saying that that takes place here.

Butch5 said:

Thus something ordained cannot be a free choice. This is just simple logic.

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Non sense. It is flawed logic.

God can and does ordain that the free will choices of men take place.

Only you say that God authors those choices before hand and forces or coerces men to make them. Certainly no Calvinist says such things.

God knew before time that men would choose certain things if and when He Himself did certain things to bring to pass certain paradigms.

In choosing to act in ways that bring to pass one paradigm as opposed to another - He predestines to come to pass exactly what He always knew would come to pass in that paradigm - including the choices made by men.

The scriptures couldn't be more clear regarding this.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." Luke 10:13

"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Corinthians 2:8

The scriptures are filled with counter factuals and their eternally known results.

Like many other shallow would be theologians, you seem to think that the omnipresent, providentially involved creator and sustainer of all things is a mere bystander in the affairs of His creation. Nothing could be farther from the truth that is revealed in the scriptures.

royal priest said:

I've been a Calvinist for over 20 years. I don't recall ever hearing that we can do whatever we want and be saved.
In fact, the opposite is taught. The 'P' in TULIP stands for 'Perseverance of the saints'. If you are one of the elect, then you will persevere in holiness. Living in sin is not an option. The will of the saved person is no longer in bondage to his sin.

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If living in sin is not an option, any Calvinist that falls from grace, you know, like can happen to just bout anyone who is tempted back into the world of sin and decides Christianity is not for them for whatever reason...that person does lose their salvation, so in reality, there never really was eternal salvation?

I was under the impression Calvinism taught Eternal Salvation?

His student said:

God ordains that what men will choose in certain circumstances will indeed take place.

It would only be a violation of their will if God authored their choice and assigned it to them. Calvinists are very careful to say that that is not the case.
No kidding? But only you are saying that that takes place here.

Non sense. It is flawed logic.

God can and does ordain that the free will choices of men take place.

Only you say that God authors those choices before hand and forces or coerces men to make them. Certainly no Calvinist says such things.

God knew before time that men would choose certain things if and when He Himself did certain things to bring to pass certain paradigms.

In choosing to act in ways that bring to pass one paradigm as opposed to another - He predestines to come to pass exactly what He always knew would come to pass in that paradigm - including the choices made by men.

The scriptures couldn't be more clear regarding this.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." Luke 10:13

"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Corinthians 2:8

The scriptures are filled with counter factuals and their eternally known results.

Like many other shallow would be theologians, you seem to think that the omnipresent, providentially involved creator and sustainer of all things is a mere bystander in the affairs of His creation. Nothing could be farther from the truth that is revealed in the scriptures.

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Show me one passage that says God ordains the choices that men make. You're arguing from a presumed premise. There's nothing in Scripture that says God has ordained all things.

Here's another logical contradiction in the Confession.

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

It says that God ordains all things that come to pass but is not the author of sin. Sin comes to pass. One can't ordain all things and not ordain one of them. It's another logical fallacy.