The nature of hell?

ilovechloe

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Perhaps it’s because there are valid harmonies.

The Synoptic Gospels cover mainly the Galilean ministry. John the Judaea ministry.
So are you saying that Jesus behaved totally differently in Gallilee, & said different things to how he behaved & what he said in Judaea?

Did Jesus also have 2 last suppers, at different times?

And did he clear the temple twice, once at the beginning of his ministry & again at the end of it?
 
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redleghunter

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So are you saying that Jesus behaved totally differently in Gallilee, & said different things to how he behaved & what he said in Judaea?

Did Jesus also have 2 last suppers, at different times?

And did he clear the temple twice, once at the beginning of his ministry & again at the end of it?
Perhaps you should start another thread. There are a lot of wave top assertions you are posing.

Christ’s ministry was 3-3.5 years.

And there were two temple clearings. The details are different.


So another thread where you can focus on these issues and many will no doubt join.
 
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ilovechloe

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And there were two temple clearings. The details are different.
You are the 1st one I have heard say there were 2 temple clearings! Why didnt ANY of the Gospel writers have 2 accounts? Surely at least one of them would have known!
 
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His student

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Some questions about hell.

Is there a hell?

Is it temporary or eternal?
Even though I don't much like the idea, there is a hell - I have it on very good authority.

My source tells me that it is eternal.

That's one of the most troubling thing about it.

If you get life in prison even solitary confinement - it is difficult. But at least you know that it will eventually end.

If someone buries you alive in a coffin - it would be the most terrible thing you could imagine. But at least you know that it will eventually end.

Now imagine that someone buried you in a coffin and you could never die. That's just a little glimpse of the most troubling thing about Hell.

A sinner who goes there will suffer at least mental anguish for a hundred years - thousands of years - in fact he will wear out many long ages of time in anguish of soul and when he looks forward in time he will see nothing in the future but the same anguish forever and ever.

I want no part of it. Thanks be to God I don't have to think about it anymore than to submit this post.
 
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ilovechloe

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Even though I don't much like the idea, there is a hell - I have it on very good authority.

My source tells me that it is eternal.

That's one of the most troubling thing about it.

If you get life in prison even solitary confinement - it is difficult. But at least you know that it will eventually end.

If someone buries you alive in a coffin - it would be the most terrible thing you could imagine. But at least you know that it will eventually end.

Now imagine that someone buried you in a coffin and you could never die. That's just a little glimpse of the most troubling thing about Hell.

A sinner who goes there will suffer at least mental anguish for a hundred years - thousands of years - in fact he will wear out many long ages of time in anguish of soul and when he looks forward in time he will see nothing in the future but the same anguish forever and ever.

I want no part of it. Thanks be to God I don't have to think about it anymore than to submit this post.
What if its the wrong God? What if the Jews are right, & Jesus isnt the Messiah?
 
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redleghunter

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You are the 1st one I have heard say there were 2 temple clearings! Why didnt ANY of the Gospel writers have 2 accounts? Surely at least one of them would have known!
That was the reason John, who wrote almost two decades later covered what the Synoptics did not.

Which is another bread crumb of evidence the Synoptic gospels were already in wide circulation by 85-95 AD when John penned his account.
 
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redleghunter

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What if its the wrong God? What if the Jews are right, & Jesus isnt the Messiah?
A couple of recommendations:

1. start searching Christian scholarly sources and not the skeptics annotated bible.

2. Speak with your pastor on sources to examine. If your pastor is feeding the flock with the skeptic stuff you are posting, find a new pastor.

A lot can be found in the web:

Dating the NT

Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament - Bible Study Tools

On Dating The New Testament

http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/dating.pdf

More:

Dating The Books Of The New Testament

New Testament Books - Dating

Dating the New Testament

When were the Bible books written?

Timeline of New Testament Books - New Testament Charts (Bible History Online)

Dating The NT

The Authorship And Dating Of The New Testament

Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ? | CARM.org


If you want to read a book or two on the reliability of the Holy Scriptures and answers to skepticism I highly recommend:

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

and The Reason for God by Timothy Keller.
 
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ilovechloe

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That was the reason John, who wrote almost two decades later covered what the Synoptics did not.

Which is another bread crumb of evidence the Synoptic gospels were already in wide circulation by 85-95 AD when John penned his account.
I won't dispute the date of John, as it makes no difference to the argument. However if John is merely covering what the Synoptics didn't, strange he still didn't mention 2 temple cleansings! You would think that this would be vital information so that the reader would not be confused about why one account is at the beginning of his ministry, & one at the end.

It also doesn't explain why Jesus presented one way in Galilea, & had a total personality change in Judea.

Was there also 2 trials, crucifixions & resurrections, because those accounts are totally different as well!
 
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redleghunter

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Was there also 2 trials, crucifixions & resurrections, because those accounts are totally different as well!
All bread crumbs of different eyewitness accounts which confirms we are reading history.
 
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His student

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What if its the wrong God? What if the Jews are right, & Jesus isnt the Messiah?
Then you're in the wrong forum if you're a Christian.

That's a big if I suppose after reading some of your past posts.

Maybe it would be more appropriate and truthful if you'd label yourself as non-Christian rather than Non-Denom.
 
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Jamdoc

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What if its the wrong God? What if the Jews are right, & Jesus isnt the Messiah?
Then I pray for you. It's a matter of faith, you either believe what Jesus said and what he taught, or you don't.
 
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ilovechloe

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Then I pray for you. It's a matter of faith, you either believe what Jesus said and what he taught, or you don't.
I never said that I don't believe what he said & taught. it's just that from reading the gospels it isn't really possible to know exactly what he did say & teach. Some of it may be true, some of it may be additions or deletions by the authors or later copiers of the gospels.

I just don't have dogmatic views on what I read or am told to believe.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Is there a hell? Yes, there is. God Himself has clearly said so, so there is no doubt about that.
What is the nature of hell? Eternal separation from God, and therefore from all that is godly, good, rewarding, worthwhile, beautiful, peaceful
Is it temporary or eternal? Eternal.
Is it (painless) annihilation? No, it is conscious suffering forever.
Is it conscious torment? Yes.
Is God present or active in it's administration? It isn't "administered". It is freely chosen by those who go there.
Who or what governs hell? It doesn't have to be "governed". It simply exists.
Are there natural laws of hell if God is not present? No laws, natural or otherwise. Just existence.
Does he administer hell from a distance? See above.
What are the physics of hell? No physics. Hell, like Heaven, exists outside of time and space.
What are its natural laws? None. Hell is not part of the natural universe.
Is there fire there? Not as we understand that term. Fire is used as a symbol of Hell because being in fire is just about the most painful thing we can imagine on Earth.
Do people have physical bodies? Our physical bodies rot in the grave. Our reunited bodies will not be biological.
What senses are possible? Sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Do people see the fire or smoke? Again, there is no physical fire since Hell is not a physical place.
Do people see other people? Yes.
Can people speak? Or scream and wail? Absolute agony, but screaming? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Do people hear other people's screams? Unknown.
Do people talk? They will all hate one another absolutely, so there won't be much chatting.
Is there an intelligible language for people in hell? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Do people remember life on earth? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Can people see heaven or earth? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Is there a surface to hell? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Can people walk? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Is there gravity? No, since there is no physical matter. It is a totally spiritual existence.
What is the foundation of movement? Unclear what you are asking.
Are there angels in hell? Former angels, yes, who rebelled against God and were cast out of Heaven. Now known as demons.
Is there motion? Unrevealed and therefore unknown.
Is there change? No, just absolute agony forever.
Is there time? No. Heaven and Hell exist outside of time.
How big is hell? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
Are there three dimensions? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
How tall is the space? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
Is there an edge to hell? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
Can one walk to the edge? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
What is beyond the edge? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
Are there variations in topography? It has no physical dimensions since it is not a physical place.
Is there water? No, it has no physical properties.
Are there plants? No, it has no physical properties.
Is there an atmosphere? No, it has no physical properties.
Is hell a physical or spiritual place? Totally spiritual, as is Heaven.
Are there atoms, electrons, protons, etc? No, it has no physical properties.
What molecules and compounds exist there? None, it has no physical properties.
Are there raw materials? No, it has no physical properties.
Is the matter of the same nature as ours?
What forces exist in hell?
Is there dark matter or dark energy?
Can people make anything?
Can people do anything?
Can people think?
What is the average temperature of hell? Does it fluctuate?
Do people have lungs?
Do the lungs require oxygen in hell?
Is there oxygen to breathe in hell?
Are there fluctuations of intensity of the fire? Closer to the source it is stronger?
If there is an atmosphere of oxygen, is the entire air under constant and complete combustion?
What is the effect of fire on one's physical body?
How are people's bodies maintained and sustained?
What gives fuel to the fire to burn?
Is hell part of nature?
Is hell another dimension?
 
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Ricky M

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Some questions about hell.

Is there a hell?
What is the nature of hell?
Is it temporary or eternal?
Is it (painless) annihilation?
Is it (painful) annihilation?
Is it conscious torment?
Is God present or active in it's administration?
Who or what governs hell?
Are there natural laws of hell if God is not present?
Does he administer hell from a distance?
What are the physics of hell?
What are its natural laws?
Is there fire there?
Do people have physical bodies?
What senses are possible? Sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell?
Do people see the fire or smoke?
Do people see other people?
Can people speak? Or scream and wail?
Do people hear other people's screams?
Do people talk?
Is there an intelligible language for people in hell?
Do people remember life on earth?
Can people see heaven or earth?
Is there a surface to hell?
Can people walk?
Is there gravity?
What is the foundation of movement?
Are there angels in hell?
Is there motion?
Is there change?
Is there time?
How big is hell?
Are there three dimensions?
How tall is the space?
Is there an edge to hell?
Can one walk to the edge?
What is beyond the edge?
Are there variations in topography?
Is there water?
Are there plants?
Is there an atmosphere?
Is hell a physical or spiritual place?
Are there atoms, electrons, protons, etc?
What molecules and compounds exist there?
Are there raw materials?
Is the matter of the same nature as ours?
What forces exist in hell?
Is there dark matter or dark energy?
Can people make anything?
Can people do anything?
Can people think?
What is the average temperature of hell? Does it fluctuate?
Do people have lungs?
Do the lungs require oxygen in hell?
Is there oxygen to breathe in hell?
Are there fluctuations of intensity of the fire? Closer to the source it is stronger?
If there is an atmosphere of oxygen, is the entire air under constant and complete combustion?
What is the effect of fire on one's physical body?
How are people's bodies maintained and sustained?
What gives fuel to the fire to burn?
Is hell part of nature?
Is hell another dimension?
Here is my take on the subject:

I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell'. Look at it this way. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit outside on the curb. Am I really responsible for those who choose to sit outside on the curb?

Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?

And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?

God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.

Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire (hell) appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created.

Could it be that the de-creation of our world creates the lake of fire?

Could it be that God lets those who loved this world more than Him, have it in its natural state apart from Him?

God lets us choose. It’s the only way He can know if the love we give Him is real - by giving us the ability to choose not to.
 
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Butch5

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Some questions about hell.

Is there a hell?
What is the nature of hell?
Is it temporary or eternal?
Is it (painless) annihilation?
Is it (painful) annihilation?
Is it conscious torment?
Is God present or active in it's administration?
Who or what governs hell?
Are there natural laws of hell if God is not present?
Does he administer hell from a distance?
What are the physics of hell?
What are its natural laws?
Is there fire there?
Do people have physical bodies?
What senses are possible? Sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell?
Do people see the fire or smoke?
Do people see other people?
Can people speak? Or scream and wail?
Do people hear other people's screams?
Do people talk?
Is there an intelligible language for people in hell?
Do people remember life on earth?
Can people see heaven or earth?
Is there a surface to hell?
Can people walk?
Is there gravity?
What is the foundation of movement?
Are there angels in hell?
Is there motion?
Is there change?
Is there time?
How big is hell?
Are there three dimensions?
How tall is the space?
Is there an edge to hell?
Can one walk to the edge?
What is beyond the edge?
Are there variations in topography?
Is there water?
Are there plants?
Is there an atmosphere?
Is hell a physical or spiritual place?
Are there atoms, electrons, protons, etc?
What molecules and compounds exist there?
Are there raw materials?
Is the matter of the same nature as ours?
What forces exist in hell?
Is there dark matter or dark energy?
Can people make anything?
Can people do anything?
Can people think?
What is the average temperature of hell? Does it fluctuate?
Do people have lungs?
Do the lungs require oxygen in hell?
Is there oxygen to breathe in hell?
Are there fluctuations of intensity of the fire? Closer to the source it is stronger?
If there is an atmosphere of oxygen, is the entire air under constant and complete combustion?
What is the effect of fire on one's physical body?
How are people's bodies maintained and sustained?
What gives fuel to the fire to burn?
Is hell part of nature?
Is hell another dimension?

The modern concept of Hell as a place of torment doesn't exist. In the Bible hell is the grave.
 
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Light of the East

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This is a free country.......
if you want to look at his work that way.... that is your choice.

But although I do tend to be naive I have a little bit of discernment and
I am more than a little bit impressed with the calibre of his interviews
that he has allowed to be all over the internet.



Matthew 5

30

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The Orthodox Church, and especially the monks of Mount Athos, have made it clear that such "visions" are not to be desired or necessarily believed. St. Paul warned that the devil, whose desire it is to slander God, can come to appear as an angel of light.

It is also highly interesting that in Western theology, the "visions" of seers and the like are always about hell, damnation, the angry God, and sin, whereas in the East, if there are such things, they are about the love of God. Perhaps this comes from the judicial nature of Western thought, which was highly influenced by the Roman Courtroom mentality of punishment.
 
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Light of the East

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From Thomas Hopko, "The Orthodox Faith: Vol. IV, Spirituality". The whole set can be found for free here:

"The Kingdom of heaven is already in the midst of those who live the spiritual life. What the spiritual person knows in the Holy Spirit, in Christ and the Church, will come with power and glory for all men to behold at the end of the ages.

The final coming of Christ will be the judgment of all men. His very presence will be the judgment. Now men can live without the love of Christ in their lives. They can exist as if there were no God, no Christ, no Spirit, no Church, no spiritual life. At the end of the ages this will no longer be possible. All men will have to behold the Face of Him who “for us men and our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate . . . who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried . . .” (Nicene Creed). All will have to look at Him whom they have crucified by their sins: Him “who was dead and is alive again” (Rev 1.17–18).

For those who love the Lord, His Presence will be infinite joy, paradise and eternal life. For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ “comes in glory, and all angels with Him,” so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15–28). Those who have God as their “all” within this life will finally have divine fulfillment and life. For those whose “all” is themselves and this world, the “all” of God will be their torture, their punishment and their death. And theirs will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Mt 8.21, et al.).

The Son of Man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Mt 13.41–43).

According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love."

The beautiful truth of the beautiful faith God gave to the world - Holy Orthodoxy. The faith of the Early Church and the Fathers.

I would only add that perhaps David Bentley Hart is right....that the suffering is designed as remedial rather than eternal punishment which accomplishes nothing for it has no end.
 
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Light of the East

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Hell is just another sales tool for the church. The idea of a 'loving god' can only go so far towards converting people.

However the idea of being tormented in hell for eternity! If you can put enough fear into somebodies mind, then that is an extremely powerful motivator. It is also what KEEPS people in the faith. Many Christians have doubts about Gods existence, but there is always that fear in the back of their mind. What if it is all true? If I leave the church I might go to hell! I can guarantee if hell wasn't a thing, the size of the Christian church would be less than 1/4 of what it is now.

That is why the idea of hell evolved into the nastiest, most vile & torturous place that can be imagined. To put maximum fear into peoples minds, & keep them coming back to church!

In the Old Testament, hell barely got a mention, & it was thought that people who died just went into a deep sleep when they died. There was no concept of being tortured for eternity. That concept was a Christian invention, & it has worked very well to scare people into, & staying in Christianity!

Strange that God only thought to bring mankind's attention to hell around the time the Christian church was being formed, & that he never thought to make mention of it before that!

Actually, if you think about it, the whole preaching of hell to keep people in church and in line is reather ironic and humorous. Mankind has been threatened with eternal fire for a good 1500 years (it really getting going about the time of Augustine) and look at the world today. Is there anyone who doesn't know (in developed countries) that God burns sinners forever - and yet the world is more filled with fornication, homosexuality, adultery, theft, liars, cheats, stealing, blasphemers, etc., than ever before.

Seems it ain't wotking too well!!
 
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if

If hell is a real thing, how come it never got mentioned in the O.T? If hell was always there, you would think that god would have thought to have mentioned it at some time to his chosen people. How come it was only to the authors of the Christian bible that God suddenly decided it was important to mention it?

That is an awfully good question, isn't it? Especially if it is a horrible, terrible place of punishment that never ends. You would certainly think that God, who is love, would in love warn people of this place from the moment mankind was thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

That is, IF it exists.
 
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