Struggles with Calvinism

renniks · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

The ability to believe is a gift. Grace is a gift. But a gift has to be accepted or it's not a gift, but a demand. Forced salvation would be spiritual rape.
I don't understand why you think you have to accept Calvinism to be a conservative Christian. You don't.
God wants all to be saved.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 10, 2019

The bottom line is that we believe and act on 1 John 1:9, because depending on the clear promise that if we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness takes priority over any concerns about predestination and election. The clear indication is that if we are able to believe 1 John 1:9 and act on it, we are elected and presdestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

If we put the cart before the horse we are going to become confused and tangled up with the whys and wherefores of election and predestination and not be able to see our way clear to a confident faith in God's promise. Therefore, taking hold of the promise of God in the Scripture comes first, then the issue of election and predestination falls into to place after that.

It is the devil who confuses us and tries to tell us that we cannot take hold of the salvation promises because we don't really know if we are predestined or elected.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Who, exactly, is in "the free will camp"?

And that would put me in the Reformed camp. It wasn't an insult.

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

People who believe in Free Will, as someone alluded to above, are just about EVERYONE BUT CALVINISTS.

So the CAMP includes, but is not limited to, Arminians, plus millions that have never heard or read one word of Arminius.

Calvinists are a small, but very vocal group compared to Christendom in general - Catholic, Orthodox, and all the PROTESTANTS except Calvinists.

The issue of free will vs determinism exists outside of theology altogether

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Ahhh...
The "oh, they were never saved to begin with" card.

As I asked before, who is in THE FREE WILL CAMP?

I am

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

renniks said:
The ability to believe is a gift. Grace is a gift. But a gift has to be accepted or it's not a gift, but a demand. Forced salvation would be spiritual rape.
I don't understand why you think you have to accept Calvinism to be a conservative Christian. You don't.
God wants all to be saved.

Spiritual rape is a little harsh don't you think? Reformed Theology has never said God FORCES anyone to be saved. That is how you interpret what they are saying.

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Calvinism proposes that an individual is predestined for heaven or hell regardless of what they think or do, is this not true?

chilehed · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.

Don't worry about it. Calvinism is a blasphemous lie straight from the pit of hell. It makes God into a monster who intentionally prevents people from being able to know Him, and then punishes them for not knowing Him.

I was brought up in a Calvinist tradition, and I thank God for rescuing me from it.

His student · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this

Your right - greater minds than both of us have debated this long and hard.

Among them were the Westminster Assembly numbering around 140 theologians who debated these things from a Calvinistic point of view for some 5 years or so in the mid 1600's.

Their finished document is the best known and most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought on the subject of the sovereignty of God as it relates to the free will of men.

Among other things here is what they said about the subject after those 5 years of discussion:

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

The idea that God's sovereignty somehow negates the free will of men is clearly refuted in this the most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought.

Rest assured that there is nothing to be sad about in Calvinism (rightly presented) when it comes to God supposedly forcing Himself on anyone or keeping anyone from coming to Him if they want to.

I'm sure that there are those who will throw out those old straw men again here. But they are exactly that - straw men.

AN EXAMPLE OF THESE KINDS OF FALSE CHARGES FOLLOWS IN THE NEXT POST BELOW (#91).

Calvinism have long taught that these kinds of charges are not warranted by what they teach.

There are exceptions within Calvinism where men go beyond what is taught in scripture just as there are within Arminianism.

While I myself do not identify as a Calvinist - I gladly defend them and any other Christian when it comes to lies about what they believe. You should do the same.

His student · Nov 10, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Calvinism proposes that an individual is predestined for heaven or hell regardless of what they think or do, is this not true?

No

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

There are 5 tenets of Calvinism known as the TULIP not one of them has a passage of Scripture that plainly states it. They are all by way of inference. That should be a red flag right there.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom
you turn to this thread for help and if you 're reading this I'm sure you are more confused than ever and most likely disgusted with most of us. It is as though we forgot all about you and your struggle and fought among ourselves, the same old fight that has been raging for centuries. I apologize for my part in it.
i have not forgotten you. As one noble poster said early on, trust God. What is important for salvation is the core beliefs concerning Jesus. Who He is, what He did and why n for whom. How you arrive at that faith, whether by choice or by God's giving you th faith doesn't change your salvation one way or the other. Having myself b begun my Christian walk believing in free will, and changing to Reformed after 20 years, I have found that many aspects of God and the atonement, of my understanding of grace and justification and propitiation have become more clear and deeper. But that is me. Doesn't mean it's you. I appreciate the fact that you are looking for answers. That you are actually doing the work.
Since my presence in this thread has become a distraction to what you were looking for I will move on out of it but you can always contact me privately if you have questions.

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

His student said:
Your right - greater minds than both of us have debated this long and hard.

Among them the are the Westminster Assembly numbering around 140 theologians who debated these things from a Calvinistic point of view for some 5 years or so in the mid 1600's.

Their finished document is the best known and most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought on the subject of the sovereignty of God as it relates to the free will of men.

Among other things here is what they said about the subject after those 5 years of discussion:

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

The idea that God's sovereignty somehow negates the free will of men is clearly refuted in this the most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought.

Rest assured that there is nothing to be sad about in Calvinism when it comes to God supposedly forcing Himself on anyone or keeping anyone from coming to Him if they want to.

I'm sure that there are those who will throw out those old straw men again here. But they are exactly that - straw men.

AN EXAMPLE OF THESE KINDS OF FALSE CHARGES FOLLOWS IN THE NEXT POST BELOW

Calvinist have long taught that these kinds of charges are not warranted by what they teach.

There are exceptions within Calvinism where men go beyond what is taught in scripture just as there are within Arminianism.

I wonder why you consider the Westminster Confession the most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought. I also wonder why you consider these men great minds when they have espouse such a contradiction. That statement from the Confession is a logical contradiction. If God ordained every thing that happens then man has no free will. It can't be both ways. That's a logical contradiction.

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Westminster Confession is a classic goal-post moving maneuver, to try to obscure that Calvinism says a person's fate is determined by God irrespective of the person.

"No, Calvinism doesn't make man a puppet or an automaton!"

But it does.

Emsmom 1, I make no apologies for any of this. You need to know

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Throw Calvinism out t h e window, and hopefully the window is right over THE PITS OF HELL where it came from.

renniks · Nov 10, 2019

reformed05 said:
Spiritual rape is a little harsh don't you think? Reformed Theology has never said God FORCES anyone to be saved. That is how you interpret what they are saying.

It's the logical conclusion of irresistible grace.

His student · Nov 10, 2019

Butch5 said:
I wonder why you consider the Westminster Confession the most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought. I also wonder why you consider these men great minds when they have espouse such a contradiction. That statement from the Confession is a logical contradiction. If God ordained every thing that happens then man has no free will. It can't be both ways. That's a logical contradiction.

Because it is the most widely used Calvinistic confession in the world.

It is not a contradiction. It is exactly what the scripture teaches when all is considered without any preconceived bias.

I have schooled you before on this subject. I won't take the time to do it again here.

My post was for the OP. You are likely beyond reaching with solid teaching on this subject - as bias as you have proven to be.

There is absolutely no contradiction in the teaching that God predestines all that takes in history and the free will choices that take place in history.

Your saying it is so doesn't make it so.

His student · Nov 10, 2019

reformed05 said:
Spiritual rape is a little harsh don't you think? Reformed Theology has never said God FORCES anyone to be saved. That is how you interpret what they are saying.

Right on. Speaking for myself, I really get tired of people telling me what I am saying rather than letting me just speak for myself. I'm sure Calvinists feel the same - and for that matter Arminians and any other person.

renniks said:
It's the logical conclusion of irresistible grace.

When fallen men have no spiritual life to rape - it cannot be spiritual rape when God acts to create spiritual life that will inevitably result in willingly receiving the truth of the gospel when it is presented.

Assuming for a moment that you have believed and are saved - you can thank God for the grace He extended to you when you were spiritually dead.

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

To say I am in the free will camp is not an insult, no.

To say I am up on a HIGH HORSE definitely IS an insult.

But I have been insulted so much in 20 years of message boards by Calvinists that I just make a joke out of it now.

renniks · Nov 10, 2019

His student said:
When fallen men have no spiritual life to rape - it cannot be spiritual rape when God acts to create spiritual life that will inevitably result in willingly receiving the truth of the gospel when it is presented.

Assuming for a moment that you have believed and are saved - you can thank God for the grace He extended to you when you were spiritually dead.

I do thank him for grace. And I happily sing about the "overwhelming never-ending reckless Love of God, and that there's no door he won't break down, coming after me. " And that I am free to dance and free to sing and free to live for him. All that is true because of Grace. But I am also keenly aware, that I have the capability to resist that Grace and in fact, crawl back into the grave where I came from. Actually, I don't want that to be true. Why would anyone want to believe that they could betray the one who gave them life? But it keeps us humble, or it should. Love can't be Love if it's irresistible.

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

His student said:
Because it is the most widely used Calvinistic confession in the world.

It is not a contradiction. It is exactly what the scripture teaches when all is considered without any preconceived bias.

I have schooled you before on this subject. I won't take the time to do it again here.

My post was for the OP. You are likely beyond reaching with solid teaching on this subject - as bias as you have proven to be.

There is absolutely no contradiction in the teaching that God predestines all that takes in history and the free will choices that take place in history.

Your saying it is so doesn't make it so.

You can say that till the cows come home, but it's still a logical fallacy. If God ordained everything then there is nothing that is not ordained. If everything is ordained then no one has the will to do anything that God hasn't already ordained. It's just simple logical. Thus the statement is a logical fallacy which is why I question both the authority and wisdom of the Confession.

I don't know who you schooled, but it wasn't me as I'm not a Calvinist. I'm not beyond reaching. I just don't believe things that aren't possible. A logical contradiction isn't possible.

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