Struggles with Calvinism

reformed05

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I did, my post stands.

When one thinks God values people differently it opens the door for them to do the same, even if they don't realize it.
I don't know what you mean. I don't think God values people differently and neither does Reformed Theology. Where are you getting that from?
 
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Dave L

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

Here's a simple illustration of how God controls our free choices through the reasons we base them on.


Two of the most conflicting doctrines of the bible for many are God’s Sovereignty and Human free will. How can both exist without robbing each other of their full force? But the Westminster and the London Baptist confessions solved this puzzle by assigning each their proper role, nearly 400 years ago.

Chapter 3; God's Eternal Decree; 1.

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” OPC. Westminster Confession with Modern English.

In this we see God’s sovereignty. And his predetermining all that comes to pass. Since he is eternal with perfect knowledge, he created all, independently of anything or anyone later to influence his will. And secondary causes, namely the reasons people freely choose what they do, are part of God’s perfect knowledge and therefore certain to fulfill their part in the choices we make.

So with childlike understanding we can see how this works.

A kid has a wagon to which he attaches his goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid ties a carrot to his cane fishing pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat pulling the wagon according to the direction both want. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat trots in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he applies the wagon brakes. If he wants to start up again, he releases the brakes and dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and the goat now wants to travel.

So in this we see the kid’s sovereignty, the goat’s free will and his genuine desire to choose what the kid wants him to do, even though the motives differ. And the secondary causes the kid uses to steer the goat to his predetermined destination. The kid opens doors and closes doors by using the brake. And he directs the goat who follows most willingly according to his nature and appetites. And according to the circumstances surrounding him.

And so it is with us, God sends and controls all the secondary causes that lead us freely to choose the destination he planned for us.
 
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royal priest

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I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
That's not the answer of a true Calvinist. By true, I mean someone who truly appreciates the doctrines of God's grace.
Such a question from my niece would be an opportunity to open the Bible with her and share the Gospel. I would tell her that God loves her in the same way that He loves all of His creatures. He gives His rain and Sun and so many countless gifts for us to enjoy. But we don't love God in return and deserve to be punished by Him because of our many sins against Him. Yet God gave His Son as a special gift for sinners and everyone who accepts this special gift will be loved by God in a special way. Then explain what it means to be a sinner and how Jesus can enable her to love God and to deal with her sinful heart.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You're having a problem with Calvinism because Calvinism is a problem. Stay away, FAR away because once you get caught up in this easy religion (by design) that is preferable over true Christianity, and realize once you are saved you can do nothing to lose that salvation, it'll be nearly, if not impossible to break away. All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must. In attempting to help them, we get some of the strangest arguments for which they attempt to defend their Eternal Security. The Bible states it so simply, if we do good, we go to heaven and if we do not (do evil) we go to hell. Gotta love a book that for the most part, is not the least bit confusing.

Read this and other such threads and see for yourself how they carry themselves, skipping questions during an argument, using the same old learned from each other, not God, lines of reasoning to defend their theology, as well as attempt to make others buy into it...tricky stuff. Tricky stuff like accusing one of trying to earn their salvation, and attempting to make them feel guilty if they attempt to be obedient to God as part of the plan to get to heaven.

It's as if they are saying we go to heaven on our faith alone and that faith doesn't include being obedient to God/Christ.

I'll leave it for now with what we must do, and not do, in order to get to heaven. IOW, we have to take action to show we belong to God and not get caught up in the very tantalizing untruth that tells us we cannot lose salvation. And BTW, I've know some of them personally, and if one is allowed to sin all they like, and stil go to heaven, I can assure you, they will. The "Master of Confusion" is alive and well in this.

Jesus said, and he put it very simply...no confusion:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

IOW, that covers everyone on earth, and we can "call" ourselves Christians all day long if we like, but if we don't do as Christ said...forget about it.

Here is some of what we must do our best to do or not do (mistakes are allowed, and forgiven if we are sincere) Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need do is make reasonable effort to obey him (something some will call an attempt to earn salvation):

Straight from the New Testament:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You'll notice how it doesn't state anyone is exempt from being bound to follow the rules there if they want heaven, so it goes for everyone

Notice how simple and clear that is, and how it doesn't tend to confuse or make you feel uneasy as in it being conflicting to the bible as you know it even in your early stages of Christianity.

A little experiment. Go ask those who have Eternal Security if they can do the things in those last two paragraphs of scripture up until the end without repenting, and still go to heaven? :)

Even at this early stage, you already know the truth.
 
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Dave L

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You're having a problem with Calvinism because Calvinism is a problem. Stay away, FAR away because once you get caught up in this easy religion (by design) that is preferable over true Christianity, and realize once you are saved you can do nothing to lose that salvation, it'll be nearly, if not impossible to break away. All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must. In attempting to help them, we get some of the strangest arguments for which they attempt to defend their Eternal Security. The Bible states it so simply, if we do good, we go to heaven and if we do not (do evil) we go to hell. Gotta love a book that for the most part, is not the least bit confusing.

Read this and other such threads and see for yourself how they carry themselves, skipping questions during an argument, using the same old learned from each other, not God, reasoning to defend the theology, as well as attempt to make others buy into it...tricky stuff. Tricky stuff like accusing one of trying to earn their salvation, and attempting to make them feel guilty if we attempt to be obedient to God as part of the plan to get to heaven.

I'll leave it for now with what we must do, and not do, in order to get to heaven. IOW, we have to take action to show we belong to God and not get caught up in the very tantalizing untruth that tells us we cannot lose salvation. And BTW, I've know some of them personally, and if one is allowed to sin all they like, and stil go to heaven, I can assure you, they will. The "Master of Confusion" is alive and well in this.

Jesus said, and he put it very simply...no confusion:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

IOW, that covers everyone on earth, and we can "call" ourselves Christians all day long if we like, but if we don't do as Christ said...forget about it.

Here is some of what we must do our best to do or not do (mistakes are allowed, and forgiven if we are sincere) Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need do is make reasonable effort to obey him (something some will call an attempt to earn salvation):

Straight from the New Testament:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You'll notice how it doesn't state anyone is exempt from being bound to follow the rules there if they want heaven, so it goes for everyone

Notice how simple and clear that is, and how it doesn't tend to confuse or make you feel uneasy as in it being conflicting to the bible as you know it even in your early stages of Christianity.

A little experiment. Go ask those who have Eternal Security if they can do the things in those last two paragraphs of scripture up until the end without repenting, and still go to heaven? :)

Even at this early stage, you already know the truth.
It's not that complex. All of Christendom fits into one of three categories. And believe it or not, most denominations are more Catholic than they are protestant.
Christianity's three rival views of Salvation.

Every Christian and every Church can fall into one of three categories depending on how they view salvation. They are as follows.

1. People are so bad, God alone can save them (Augustinianism/Calvinism). Augustinianism confirmed as Orthodox by the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

2. People are not as bad as Augustine says. They join God in his efforts to save them (Semi-Pelagianism). The 2nd Council of Orange condemned Semi-Pelagianism as heresy in 529 AD. This view revolves around "free will". Held by Catholics and most denominations.

3. People are not bad at all. They save themselves by following Christ's example (Pelagianism). Pelagianism condemned as heresy by Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

Only one is true.
 
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HTacianas

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

This is an excerpt of The Confession of Dositheus from the Synod of Jerusalem. In part, it explains the Orthodox view of predestination. It may help you with your question:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth {1 Timothy 2:4}. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

The Confession of Dositheus (Eastern Orthodox)
 
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reformed05

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The free will camp

?

Btw, Reformed05, you are not the only Calvinist that has alleged that I am a self righteous free willer

The HIGH HORSE is new though, that's original with you.

What color is the horse?
Just my mid western back ground I guess. It means getting all huffy and offended over NOTHING of any consequence. Listen, to start over! I was merely concerned that anyone would try to direct someone who was on a quest to find TRUTH for themselves, in the direction of their OWN beliefs by castigating the beliefs that she was examining. I merely suggested some reliable reading on the subject being investigated. The posts from the free will side trashed not only what I believe but what Ems was asking about. Not only that but the things they said ABOUT Calvinism are not true. It struck me as self righteous. As far as I am concerned as long as a person believes the saving doctrines of Christianity that is all that matters. HOW they got there is something either side could be wrong about and it wouldn't change the end resukt. Salvation.
Are we good? You can have any color horse you want.
 
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Butch5

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I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.It /QUOTE]

There's nothing to worry about. God is sovereign and He gives mankind free will. Calvinism is a doctrine built on proof texts. It takes passages of Scripture out of context and attempts to use them to support other ideas.
 
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topher694

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I don't know what you mean. I don't think God values people differently and neither does Reformed Theology. Where are you getting that from?
From checking, double checking and triple checking the WHOLE of scripture... and, seeing your default treatment of others for starters.
 
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reformed05

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You're having a problem with Calvinism because Calvinism is a problem. Stay away, FAR away because once you get caught up in this easy religion (by design) that is preferable over true Christianity, and realize once you are saved you can do nothing to lose that salvation, it'll be nearly, if not impossible to break away. All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must. In attempting to help them, we get some of the strangest arguments for which they attempt to defend their Eternal Security. The Bible states it so simply, if we do good, we go to heaven and if we do not (do evil) we go to hell. Gotta love a book that for the most part, is not the least bit confusing.

Read this and other such threads and see for yourself how they carry themselves, skipping questions during an argument, using the same old learned from each other, not God, lines of reasoning to defend their theology, as well as attempt to make others buy into it...tricky stuff. Tricky stuff like accusing one of trying to earn their salvation, and attempting to make them feel guilty if they attempt to be obedient to God as part of the plan to get to heaven.

It's as if they are saying we go to heaven on our faith alone and that faith doesn't include being obedient to God/Christ.

I'll leave it for now with what we must do, and not do, in order to get to heaven. IOW, we have to take action to show we belong to God and not get caught up in the very tantalizing untruth that tells us we cannot lose salvation. And BTW, I've know some of them personally, and if one is allowed to sin all they like, and stil go to heaven, I can assure you, they will. The "Master of Confusion" is alive and well in this.

Jesus said, and he put it very simply...no confusion:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

IOW, that covers everyone on earth, and we can "call" ourselves Christians all day long if we like, but if we don't do as Christ said...forget about it.

Here is some of what we must do our best to do or not do (mistakes are allowed, and forgiven if we are sincere) Jesus paid the price for our sin and all we need do is make reasonable effort to obey him (something some will call an attempt to earn salvation):

Straight from the New Testament:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You'll notice how it doesn't state anyone is exempt from being bound to follow the rules there if they want heaven, so it goes for everyone

Notice how simple and clear that is, and how it doesn't tend to confuse or make you feel uneasy as in it being conflicting to the bible as you know it even in your early stages of Christianity.

A little experiment. Go ask those who have Eternal Security if they can do the things in those last two paragraphs of scripture up until the end without repenting, and still go to heaven? :)

Even at this early stage, you already know the truth.
 
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royal priest

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All because we love the idea of acting how we like and still going to heaven/have our cake and eat it too, sheer denial seems to set in if someone tries to pull you out of it, and it's so desirable, it makes perfect sense people don't won't to do what God/Christ says we must.
I've been a Calvinist for over 20 years. I don't recall ever hearing that we can do whatever we want and be saved.
In fact, the opposite is taught. The 'P' in TULIP stands for 'Perseverance of the saints'. If you are one of the elect, then you will persevere in holiness. Living in sin is not an option. The will of the saved person is no longer in bondage to his sin.
 
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reformed05

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Post 55
You have COMPLETELY mid represented what Reformed Theology teaches and not only that, you repeated it to someone who is SEARCHING as though it were absolute fact.
We do not in any way shape or form teach that we can willfully sin with impunity because we cannot loose our salvation. We do teach that we cannot loose our salvation, a it is blood bought by Jesus. We teach that faith to believe is a gift, given by God. That this faith, this ability and willingness to trust in Jesus alone for salvation is a product of regeneration, or new birth, done by God.We believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, is our teacher and guide and advocate and comforter. We believe that through Him as we learn and grow in the knowledge of His word, we sin less and less.We will never be completely sin free on this earth but it is the Holy Spirit in us that now causes us to do good works, to want to obey God. Anyone who blatantly and willfully sins without conscience or regret is showing that he has not been regenerated, even if he professes that he is. Not that He never will be but not yet.
 
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