Struggles with Calvinism

It worries me too. However, I attend a Calvinist church because all the local churches are as far as I'm aware. I lean on Proverbs 3:5-6 and rely on the Lord to teach and guide me.

Hallelujah that you've come to believe in Him ♡ Welcome to CF!

You are already displaying more wisdom than many who have been Christians for decades. Trust your instincts about the Lord whenever they point towards love and compassion and when you don't understand something seek understanding through those same eyes and you'll do great!

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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It may be that your fear/ distrust of calvinism is GOD'S GIFT TO YOU, as you seek God, He uses the CONSCIENCE HE GAVE YOU to warn you.

Loved your post, sister. God is sovereign, but the Bible makes absolutely no sense unless we have been gifted with free will. And behind it all, everything we have, including life and salvation, is a free gift from the One who gives generously.

Many blessings.

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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Great debate between two believers one Calvinist one free will. I fall on the free will side. Calvanism makes god evil IMO. Muslim God in many ways. Calvin was a man, his traditions are not infallible.

Jesus loves the little children
Some of all types of all the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
Some are precious in His sight
Jesus loves some of the children of the world

Just rejoice, Emsmom1, God is sovereign enough to give us free will. If Calvinism makes you feel I like crying, know that it makes me feel like vomiting. You have come to CHRISTIANITY, not the distortion of it that would make you cry.

Emsmom1 said:

But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad.

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God is not the author of confusion nor would He want you to be brought to tears because of His"Good News". Think about it. Could it be possible Calvinism is in error? Let us reason. Your tears are grounded in fear. "1 John 4:18 “Perfect Love Casts Out All Fear”.

Contrary to what some will tell you, God is not in charge here. He never wanted to be; He wanted us to be in charge. That’s why He gave Adam, the first man, dominion over creation. But that first guy - there's always one guy messing it up for the rest of us - gave that in-charge position away.

Of course, God could have stepped in at that time and taken charge, but then He'd be in charge, which isn't what He wanted. So in order to restore things back to what God intended, a man had to step up and re-take charge.

But who among us could? Only God could. That’s why God had to come as a man to take charge, so that man would be in charge like He originally intended.

Just to paint the whole picture let's go back to the very beginning. The thing about God's sovereign will is that He generally chooses not to enforce it Himself. God created creation, and He was in charge of it. God then created man, and yielded His sovereignty to put man in charge of it. His deal with Adam was, I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advice, but what you say Adam, that’s what goes. You, Adam, are the authority.

So Adam then gives that authority away to satan. God could have, in His sovereign power, taken authority back from satan, but then that would put Him back in charge, and that was never His intent, His will. His intent/will was for man to have authority.

But again, who among us could do such a thing? Well, only God, coming to us as a man. So Christ comes and indeed takes back authority - in the spiritual realm. But, He has yet to return to this world to enforce it.

That's where our partnership comes in. It is our charge that we participate with Him in the enforcement of His authority, over the yet-to-be restored, and therefore still under the rule of satan creation. And we do that thru prayer and partnering in the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe a simpler way to look at it is to compare it to a Sheriff and his deputies. The Sheriff is the one who holds authority, but he doesn't actually go out and patrol the streets. His deputies are the ones who go out and enforce the Sheriff's authority. Christ is the Sheriff, it's His authority. But until He returns to lay claim to the land, we are His deputies enforcing His will in a land run by criminals.

And while satan still rules this world, you can bet he's going to give us resistance. I've always said that you can tell how powerful one might be in the kingdom of God, by how hard hell works to hold them under. satan only attacks those he feels are a threat. Take that under consideration the next time you feel under attack. Which I assume by the sound of it is all the time.

We have Christ's authority to supersede that in the places and things we come in contact with. satan, the still-ruler of this world, is going to do everything he can to make us as stifled and stymied and irrelevant as he can. Jesus said in His Name we will do what He did, and even more. WE will do. Not ask Him to do, but WE will do. Your defense is in YOUR hands, with the most powerful weapon the universe has ever seen.

Strap on your armor and start swinging back. We DO eventually win this war. In the meantime, we are every bit the occupying army that is the US Soldier in Afghanistan. Don't be overwhelmed by attack, expect it. And be ready with your sword. God says persevere - this is a war of attrition, with the knowledge that we DO win in the end. But you still have to pick up your arms and swing back.

For now.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It may be that your fear/ distrust of calvinism is GOD'S GIFT TO YOU, as you seek God, He uses the CONSCIENCE HE GAVE YOU to warn you.

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you shouldn't say something like that to anyone, let alone a new believer. Especially not one who is obviously deeply sincere and very insightful and in a quest for TRUTH, whether they like what that is or not. What you just did was nothing more than to speak for God in the guise of swaying someone towards your own beliefs. What if you are wrong?

reformed05 said:

you shouldn't say something like that to anyone, let alone a new believer. Especially not one who is obviously deeply sincere and very insightful and in a quest for TRUTH, whether they like what that is or not. What you just did was nothing more than to speak for God in the guise of swaying someone towards your own beliefs. What if you are wrong?

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I must say what conscience requires, by faith and obedience to Jesus.

That's what the God-Given conscience is for - to know what is wrong, as God directs.

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

Click to expand...

This Christian walk of ours is very long and full of mistakes and blessed with constant learning and growth. Seems you are off to magnificent start. That you want TRUTH even if in your search you struggle and deep and are afraid. I applaud you. You are rare.
i don't know what resources you are using to study Calvinism (I prefer the term Reformed Theology as it is more accurate, less misleading) but I suggest some of R.C. So would books. "What Is Reformed Theology" is a good one. He is very good at getting to the depth of the theology, getting to what it truly is that Reformed teaches. I am not suggesting that Reformed is the way you should go. Only that in order to make the decision it would be good to have a thorough and accurate understanding of Reformed.
There are so many misunderstandings, and accusations, and statements of belief about us that are totally inaccurate bandied around that it is disgusting.
The reference to John 3:16 is automatically misinterpreted to mean the whole world, everybody in it. God does love the world He created and the people He created. He loves your niece. But in this passage it doesn't mean that He gave Jesus so everyone would be saved, that would be Universalism or that He failed in His purpose. It means there was no limit to the Types of people He would save. Jew, Gentile, man, woman, rich, poor

No one is in a position to tell yeshuaslavejeff "you shouldn't say" this or that.

Emsmom1 has come to the board with questions, think about it - a brand new Christian, already brought to tears by Calvinism.

We can say whatever we are led to say, we can say whatever we want, be it a sarcastic "Calvinist hymn" like I posted, or maybe Ricky M' s totally the other way post about US being in charge, rather than God, which is a bit far for me. I would say there is a SYNERGY between what God does, and what we do - and if it is dreadful to already be using technical terms with a new Christian, remember, somebody already introduced the term "Calvinist" to her, which made her want to cry.

I think R. C. Sproul is who you meant to refer to, Reformed05

reformed05 said:

This Christian walk of ours is very long and full of mistakes and blessed with constant learning and growth. Seems you are off to magnificent start. That you want TRUTH even if in your search you struggle and deep and are afraid. I applaud you. You are rare.
i don't know what resources you are using to study Calvinism (I prefer the term Reformed Theology as it is more accurate, less misleading) but I suggest some of R.C. So would books. "What Is Reformed Theology" is a good one. He is very good at getting to the depth of the theology, getting to what it truly is that Reformed teaches. I am not suggesting that Reformed is the way you should go. Only that in order to make the decision it would be good to have a thorough and accurate understanding of Reformed.
There are so many misunderstandings, and accusations, and statements of belief about us that are totally inaccurate bandied around that it is disgusting.
The reference to John 3:16 is automatically misinterpreted to mean the whole world, everybody in it. God does love the world He created and the people He created. He loves your niece. But in this passage it doesn't mean that He gave Jesus so everyone would be saved, that would be Universalism or that He failed in His purpose. It means there was no limit to the Types of people He would save. Jew, Gentile, man, woman, rich, poor

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Accidentally posted.
No one or group of people were excluded. Sproul and other reputable writers clear up these sorts of things. In my post above the author is R.C. Sproul.
i will be happy to answer any questions that I can, and privately if you prefer.

Even me as Arminian thinks Sproul is pretty good FOR A CALVINIST.

evangelicalarminians.org is a resource for the other side of the coin from C...

Ca...

Calvinism.

Tra Phull said:

No one is in a position to tell yeshuaslavejeff "you shouldn't say" this or that.

Emsmom1 has come to the board with questions, think about it - a brand new Christian, already brought to tears by Calvinism.

We can say whatever we are led to say, we can say whatever we want, be it a sarcastic "Calvinist hymn" like I posted, or maybe Ricky M' s totally the other way post about US being in charge, rather than God, which is a bit far for me. I would say there is a SYNERGY between what God does, and what we do - and if it is dreadful to already be using technical terms with a new Christian, remember, somebody already introduced the term "Calvinist" to her, which made her want to cry.

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Oh come down off your high horse. "Yes" didn't answer a question, He IMPLIED God was telling her not to be a Calvinist. Have I Brought Lemsmom to tears? I'm pretty sure you don't know. Yet you said it. Like it was a fact. And somebody SAYING"Calvinism to her isn't what she said made her cry. SHE IS EXPLORING FOR HERSELF!! Can't you just let her do that? God is in charge of her, she belongs to Him, is in His hands, not yours. Or mine. And what technical terms are you talking about and what is wrong with technical terms.
And also, we may be allowed to say whatever we want on here, (which btw we are not) but we should use prudence and wisdom and intelligence.

Tra Phull said:

I think R. C. Sproul is who you meant to refer to, Reformed05

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Yes. Hit post by accident before I had proofed.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I must say what conscience requires, by faith and obedience to Jesus.

That's what the God-Given conscience is for - to know what is wrong, as God directs.

Click to expand...