Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 9, 2019

Just some quotes from page 20 of this thread.... surprising? Maybe ....

The Righterzpen said:
Ya mean you can't tell the obvious difference between the voice of the Holy Spirit and the voice of Satan?
Dude; that's scary!

Scary? for who? Who does JESUS SAY His sheep HEAR and FOLLOW? (WHO is THE Shepherd?)

renniks said:
Why are we warned that Satan is looking to devour us? And you're not paying attention.. I was talking about people under conviction, not yet converted.

Because hasatan is wandering the earth seeking whom he may devout. Sheep are sent out by Jesus INTO the midst of ravenous wolves..... (go figure)...
YET HE SAYS "Don't worry" "Be anxious for nothing", "MY peace I give"... and finally also 'be of GOOD CHEER(as a sheep surrounded by wolves) "I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"

renniks said:
If it was always obvious we wouldn't be warned about it.

For Jesus' sheep who HEAR HIS VOICE and follow HIM, and WILL NOT follow another, it is obvious.
For family, neighbors, friends, acquaintances, other people , IT MAY NOT BE obvious, so they all need our prayers continually for their protection, etc , as written...

Steven Beck said:
I mean there are many people who can't tell the difference and you know why? They don't know the voice of the Holy Spirit. Me? I know

Once more, WHO does Jesus SAY CLEARLY His sheep hear ? WHO is the Shepherd ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I've said this many times before. Our prayers don't change God; they change us. If you note what the prayer actually was; it wasn't to make my son all better. It was to help us accept what ever the outcome is. And only when one understands that; do they pray for the strength to cope with what actually is determined beforehand. That's not "open theism".

I did not see the previous posts about this, and don't know why open theism is even brought up.
I copied this for a different post/ reply, fwiw now.....

Study Bible
Effective Prayer
…14And this is the confidence that we have before Him:

If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15

And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him.

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin.

There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

renniks · Nov 9, 2019

BCsenior said:
God will only answer our prayer, if it is in His will to do so.

If it is in His will ...
He will only answer our prayer today, if it is in His timing.
Otherwise, He may not answer it for another year.
I.E. He may have some reason for delaying it.

Are there prayers from believers that God does not answer? Careful now...

renniks · Nov 9, 2019

Y

The Righterzpen said:
I've said this many times before. Our prayers don't change God; they change us. If you note what the prayer actually was; it wasn't to make my son all better. It was to help us accept what ever the outcome is. And only when one understands that; do they pray for the strength to cope with what actually is determined beforehand. That's not "open theism".

Why would you not pray for him to get well? Scripture says our prayers " availeth much". It does not say they do not affect God. I'm quite aware that God doesn't always answer in the affirmative, but sometimes I think it is because our faith is weak, not always... but sometimes.

BCsenior · Nov 9, 2019

renniks said:
Are there prayers from believers that God does not answer? Careful now...

I'z a believer, and ...
I'ze bin prayin' for a pink Cadillac for a-goin' on 30 years now, but no cigar!
Well, that's not exactly true ... He lets me buy cigars.

Butch5 · Nov 9, 2019

renniks said:
It's interesting to me that we all live as if open theism is reality, even though we claim it's not. We all act as if our actions and prayers affect what God does. We all get anxious when our loved ones are in danger. We even try to make bargains with God. Ultimately, we can only trust that he will work out things for good, even if we can't see it. But no one lives as if everything is determined beforehand. And people in the Bible lived the same way.

Isn't cognitive dissonance a wonderful thing?

Butch5 · Nov 9, 2019

BCsenior said:
You're missing the whole point (and I'm not surprised) ...
WHOSOEVER (IS ABLE TO BELIEVE) BELIEVES!
WHOSOEVER (HAS BEEN ENABLED TO BELIEVE) BELIEVES!
etc.
BTW, how do like the 40 verses about ... on his own,
man is unable to choose to believe in Jesus and His foolish gospel?

You haven't posted anymore. What you guys are doing is one of the reasons I left Reformed Theology. Yes, that's right I used to be reformed. One of the reasons I gave it up was because of constantly having to redefine the meaning of everyday words. Whosoever doesn't really mean whosoever. All doesn't really mean all and so on. If we can't take words at their fundamental meaning then they have no purpose and can be defined anyway one wants to define them. Thus we have Reformed Theology

renniks · Nov 9, 2019

BCsenior said:
I'z a believer, and ...
I'ze bin prayin' for a pink Cadillac for a-goin' on 30 years now, but no cigar!
Well, that's not exactly true ... He lets me buy cigars.

Missed the point entirely.

BCsenior · Nov 9, 2019

renniks said:
Missed the point entirely.

You just gonna hafta be more accurate in your wording, etc.

renniks · Nov 9, 2019

BCsenior said:
You just gonna hafta be more accurate in your wording, etc.

Does God answer all prayers from believers? Not asking if he always says yes.

renniks · Nov 9, 2019

renniks said:
Missed the point entirely.

Mark Quayle · Nov 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
If it's only those who "are given faith" then it's not whosoever.

Why not? No, really, why not?

But the Greek doesn't say whosoever except as the KingJames English was back then. The Greek says something more along the lines of "those believing", or "those that believe".

Mark Quayle · Nov 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I've said this many times before. Our prayers don't change God; they change us. If you note what the prayer actually was; it wasn't to make my son all better. It was to help us accept what ever the outcome is. And only when one understands that; do they pray for the strength to cope with what actually is determined beforehand. That's not "open theism".

You have a good point, however, there are many things to indicate God depends on our prayers, (but then he is also the one who determines what we pray.) I note, Moses, who stood in the gap, or God would have destroyed the Israelites. Psalm 106:23 --Moses, whom God raised up for that very purpose.

God's ways certainly aren't our ways.

Steven Beck · Nov 9, 2019

Mark Quayle said:
Why not? No, really, why not?

But the Greek doesn't say whosoever except as the KingJames English was back then. The Greek says something more along the lines of "those believing", or "those that believe".

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238

It means ALL. "....that ALL WHO believeth..." All who = whosoever.

ALL means ALL. Wierd how people with funny theology change the meaning of plain words.

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

Mark Quayle said:
Why not? No, really, why not?

But the Greek doesn't say whosoever except as the KingJames English was back then. The Greek says something more along the lines of "those believing", or "those that believe".

If that's how it reads that's another issue. However, to say whosoever doesn't mean whosoever Is simply changing the meaning to fit one's theology. John 3:16 doesn't qualify the believers as those who "are given faith". It simply qualifies people are believers. We run into these problem when we try to exegete Scripture based on our theology.

The Righterzpen · Nov 10, 2019

renniks said:
Y
Why would you not pray for him to get well? Scripture says our prayers " availeth much". It does not say they do not affect God. I'm quite aware that God doesn't always answer in the affirmative, but sometimes I think it is because our faith is weak, not always... but sometimes.

"Really, a healing for my son; like that's never crossed my mind in 13 years. What a novel concept!"

Mark Quayle said:
You have a good point, however, there are many things to indicate God depends on our prayers, (but then he is also the one who determines what we pray.)

Part of Benjamin's witness and testimony is to the glory of God including and despite his disabilities; just as part of my witness and testimony to the glory of God is including and despite being an incest survivor.

Sometimes it's God's will that our diseases kill us.

The Righterzpen · Nov 10, 2019

renniks said:
Does God answer all prayers from believers? Not asking if he always says yes.

My kid will be healed on the other side of eternity - I KNOW that!

God only gives 3 answers to prayer:
Yes,
No,
Wait.

I aint (probably) ever gonna get a pink Cadillac; but my kid will get a new body one day! If ya get into the kingdom, mute, lame, mentally retarded and in a wheelchair - that's better than never getting there at all!

Butch5 · Nov 10, 2019

Mark Quayle said:
That's a little vague, to say he uses it "in conjunction with" baptism. Paul doesn't teach that baptism comes before or even during regeneration.

"In reference to" is also vague as you use it here. Jesus doesn't teach that resurrection is the same as regeneration.

Actually, he does.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,1
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit. 3:4-5 KJV)

The work translated washing here is poor. The word loutron literally means a bath. Paul says that God saved them through a two step process, the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit. The only bath in the Christian faith is water baptism. Peter said, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. How would have people saved whose sins have not been remitted?

Paul also said,

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Eph. 5:25-26 KJV)

The word, "word", here is rhema. It means something spoken. What is the bath of water in the spoken word? Here are Jesus' words.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1 (Matt. 28:19 KJV)

He told them to go and baptize.

But how does regeneration come "before" faith? It doesn't, as I understand it. It accompanies it. Both are the work of God, and could be argued to be not only the result of God making his home in a person, but to actually BE the Spirit of God in a person. Certainly they don't happen without God moving in --permanently. Both are of the same event --one is the change of heart and mind, the other is the work of God in us as relates to our sight of this life we go through. The faith certainly, therefore, is not man-made.

I don't see anything here that requires that faith is cannot come from man except opinion. To say faith comes from God doesn't really help your case. Everything comes from God. Without God there would be nothing.

Note that faith can increase. If that is so, then how can it, during its infancy be sufficient to save? Because it is God-caused --altogether valid, not dependent on our integrity, intelligence, emotions or will power.

Click to expand...

It's not actually faith that saves, it's God who saves. If simply believing was sufficient then Judas would have been saved and, according to Reformed Theology, would still be saved. However, Jesus said he was lost.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

renniks · Nov 10, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
My kid will be healed on the other side of eternity - I KNOW that!

God only gives 3 answers to prayer:
Yes,
No,
Wait.

I aint (probably) ever gonna get a pink Cadillac; but my kid will get a new body one day! If ya get into the kingdom, mute, lame, mentally retarded and in a wheelchair - that's better than never getting there at all!

I agree.

Mark Quayle · Nov 10, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238

It means ALL. "....that ALL WHO believeth..." All who = whosoever.

ALL means ALL. Wierd how people with funny theology change the meaning of plain words.

That's right. ALL who believe. And who will believe? Only those God has chosen, and changed believe. They can't help but believe, their hearts changed by God Almighty.

Funny how self-exalting theology puts God's choice secondary to man's choice. Really?

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