What does the Bible teach about physical abuse?

InterestedAtheist · Nov 8, 2019

A_Thinker said:
Interestingly, I've never met YOU, nobody I know has met you, and you're not in any of my selfies.

Should I believe that you exist ?

If I don't exist, who wrote these words?
On reflection, I think you'll probably reply: a person.
And if God doesn't exist, who wrote the Bible?
A person. Which makes sense, because that's what you believe about the holy writings of all the other religions in the world. You believe they were not written by, or at the instruction of, actual gods. Just people.

You asked the wrong question, really. You see my words here, you can see me responding to people. You can't prove much about me, but then you haven't really been given many things to prove; you can't prove that the name, or address, or telephone number I gave you are real, because I never did give them to you. So since all I've told you is that I'm an atheist on a website, the assumption that I am actually a person - and not, say, a bot - is a reasonable one.

On the other hand, we have God, about whom we know a great deal. We have many stories of Him performing miracles. We know something of His motivations. From the stories and what we know of His character, we would expect to see God interacting in our lives. But we don't.

God is the girlfriend that lives in Canada. The one we always hear about, but never actually see.

Why Canada? Interesting question:
Why Are Women's Fake Boyfriends Always From Canada?

2PhiloVoid · Nov 8, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Saying "that's definitely something for me to think about" is too rare on Christian Forums. I hope I shall have the chance to say it too as well.

Sincere respect.

What you may want to consider---and by the candor that you seem to consistently reflect---is that I've been "thinking about it all" ever since the beginning of my journey on the Christian faith, and I'm not sure you've quite picked up on all of that.

In fact, I'm not sure that there are a number of things that you skeptics here on CF, in your interlocutions with me, have quite picked up on, one being that I'm nobody's fool, although I might be their philosopher---His philosopher, really, waving His Banner!

A_Thinker · Nov 8, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
If I don't exist, who wrote these words?
On reflection, I think you'll probably reply: a person.
And if God doesn't exist, who wrote the Bible?
A person. Which makes sense, because that's what you believe about the holy writings of all the other religions in the world. You believe they were not written by, or at the instruction of, actual gods. Just people.

You asked the wrong question, really. You see my words here, you can see me responding to people. You can't prove much about me, but then you haven't really been given many things to prove; you can't prove that the name, or address, or telephone number I gave you are real, because I never did give them to you. So since all I've told you is that I'm an atheist on a website, the assumption that I am actually a person - and not, say, a bot - is a reasonable one.

On the other hand, we have God, about whom we know a great deal. We have many stories of Him performing miracles. We know something of His motivations. From the stories and what we know of His character, we would expect to see God interacting in our lives. But we don't.

God is the girlfriend that lives in Canada. The one we always hear about, but never actually see.

Why Canada? Interesting question:
Why Are Women's Fake Boyfriends Always From Canada?

All I have from you ... is communication.

Which I also have from God, ... in the existence of the scriptures.

In addition to that, I have God's intimate interactions in my life. He's done things for me ... that noone communicating over modern-day technology could do.

In reality, my evidence for you ... is only words ... and a photo (which might not be you).

I have more evidence for the existence of God ... than I have for the existence of anyone else that I've never met.

What we experience as truth in today's world ... with international communication at a moment's notice ... should give one pause as we consider what more could very well be possible.

As an example, ... it is very possible that humanity was seeded upon this planet, ... and that we experience guidance from the seeders from point to point.

I believe that was the theme of several science-based movies, including 2001 ... and Contact. To consider the possibility of such scenarios is quite reasonable, in my opinion.

FireDragon76 · Nov 8, 2019

I'm so glad I can live free of thinking that morality is determined by bronze age patriarchy.

Seriously... what does the Bible think of abuse? It's all over the place. You're talking about a book written by human beings over thousands of years and different cultures. Ideas about morality have definitely changed over time, and the Bible reflects this to some extent.

Sanoy · Nov 9, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Excellent point. Elijah stated the case clearly:
21 And Elijah came near unto all the people, and said, How long go ye limping between the two sides? if Jehovah be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
Christians frequently say, in conversations like these, that we have no right to test God. But Elijah has told you that we do have the right to test God. He set up a public test for Baal. Now you don't think like this, because you don't think Baal is real. But I don't think God is real either, so Elijah's conditions stand: if a God wants you to believe in Him - and we know that the Christian God does desire that as many people as possible are saved - then He must perform on command.
Don't like it? Sorry. Your Holy Book says so.

You didn't give me a reason. You gave me a rationalisation.
NOUN
rationalisation (noun)

the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.

I'm not angry with you, I assure you.
And yes, I do know what ad hoc means. It's also sometimes called the "making stuff up" fallacy. It's use here is correct, I'm afraid.

I'll answer your point in a moment. First of all, I just have to note: is this Christian charity?
Because you seemed to think that BigV was being...I forget the exact words you used. Bitter and vituperative? Poisonous? Yes, something like that.
So do you honestly think you can stand before God and tell Him that your post was what might be called "in a Christian spirit"?

Now, to address what you said: I gave you a challenge. Can you find a prayer on the Prayer Wall where they are actually asking for something impossible? And your answer is to sidestep the question. I believe this is an important point, and I can only think you are avoiding it because you are unable to answer it.

This is Christian Forums. It's a very large website for Christians. There are literally hundreds of prayers on the Prayer Wall. While it isn't representative of every Christian in the world, are you really telling me the prayers they say there are completely atypical of Christianity? No? In that case, answer the question, if you can. How many prayers are actually asking for the impossible?

And if you can't, perhaps you'd care to concede the point: Christians generally don't ask God for impossible things. That established, we can consider why. My idea is that they know God simply doesn't answer prayers for the impossible.

He's saying that the arguments you make on behalf of the Christian God can be used with equal facility on behalf of any god. And he's quite right. As you found when you attempted to disprove Santa, Christian arguments can be used to defend the most ridiculous things.

I gave you a reason, Israel was Gods portion, and I gave you the verse for that. That isn't a rationalization, it's literally a verse, and the text gives no indication of a region wide religious regime change, only Isreal. You gave me nothing, per the usual, for you belief.

I'm not looking on the prayer wall because it doesn't represent the standard of what Christians pray for. When you have something credible to say here let me know. And no, it isn't unChristlike to ask someone to who claims to be the credible hulk to start actually being credible.

BigV can speak for himself when he wants to do so.

InterestedAtheist · Nov 9, 2019

Sanoy said:
I gave you a reason, Israel was Gods portion, and I gave you the verse for that. That isn't a rationalization, it's literally a verse, and the text gives no indication of a region wide religious regime change, only Isreal. You gave me nothing, per the usual, for you belief.

A rationalisation. Israel may be God's portion, but the God of the Bible is now worshipped by millions all over the world, and here you are saying that they should not expect to see God's power because they are not included in the tiny fraction of humanity that the God of the Bible was worshipped by back in the day. This is, of course, contradicted by the fact that there are claims of God's miracles wherever people worship Him.
So yes, nothing but a rationalisation, a demonstration of the ad hoc fallacy.

Sanoy said:
I'm not looking on the prayer wall because it doesn't represent the standard of what Christians pray for.

Got it. Perhaps you'd like to pop over there and inform them they're all praying in the wrong way?
Or perhaps you'd like to find me some examples of Christians who are actually praying for impossible things?
I don't think you can, because there aren't any, because Christians know better than to ask God to do impossible things. If God is real, this is curious. God is famous for being able to perform miracles, it's one of the most well-known elements of the Bible.
On the other hand, if God is nothing more than a character in a story, that explains why He can only do things in stories.

Sanoy said:
And no, it isn't unChristlike to ask someone to who claims to be the credible hulk to start actually being credible.

(Shrug) HULK NO SEE NO ONE TO FIGHT. HULK GO BACK WAIT TILL SANOY ACCEPTS CHALLENGE. SANOY NEVER TRY ANSWER QUESTIONS. HULK THINK THIS FUNNY.

Sanoy said:
BigV can speak for himself when he wants to do so.

I would have thought that someone who was warned they were being less than Christian in their responses would care more. Up to you, of course.

InterestedAtheist · Nov 9, 2019

A_Thinker said:
All I have from you ... is communication.
Which I also have from God, ... in the existence of the scriptures.

Let's think about it logically. It's true, you do have communication from someone claiming to be me, and you do have communication from someone claiming to be God.
A few thoughts.
First of all, you're talking to me now. That's something you've never experience with God, and I'll bet you never will. No, I don't mean a feeling in your heart, or a voice in your head. I mean, actually talking to someone.
Second of all, are you seriously saying you don't believe I exist? So who do you think is talking to you? A person pretending to be Interested Atheist? Rather pointless, since you don't know the real me anyway. A chat bot? Possible, but again, what would be the point? And besides which, there are ways of checking for chatbots. Now, if you really want to be pedantic, no, you don't know that I'm a living person, but you can safely assume that I am. Because if not, if you're going to stretch the point to absurdity and say "I cannot know that IA is a real person, therefore I will assume that he is not" then why are you talking to me?

A_Thinker said:
In addition to that, I have God's intimate interactions in my life. He's done things for me ... that no one communicating over modern-day technology could do.

Has he, though? Really, has he? Can you tell me something that God has done for you that would be impossible in a universe (a hypothetical one, if you like) in which God does not exist?
Has God ever spoken to you aloud, or appeared in front of you? And did you catch it on camera? Has God ever given you knowledge it is impossible for you to have had on your own? These may appear to be rather searching inquiries, but this is an important question.
Or is it just that you have experienced good feelings and good luck since becoming a Christian?

A_Thinker said:
In reality, my evidence for you ... is only words ... and a photo (which might not be you).

Well, yes. And it's certainly not impossible that the person typing this could be someone else - a Christian, for example, taking pleasure in trolling other Christians? Seems pretty far-fetched, doesn't it?
But again - if it is not Interested Atheist typing these words, then what do you think it is? An artificial intelligence? That's rather pointless, and can, in principle, be tested. Or a person near you, playing games with you for some twisted reason? Rather paranoid. It seems the only reasonable assumption is that the person writing this is some person unknown to you who enjoys debating Christians. Which is exactly what I always said I am.
The photograph, by the way, is not me, and I don't believe I ever said it was. It's Edmund Blackadder, played by Rowan Atkinson. The Elizabethan ruff and doublet rather give it away.

A_Thinker said:
I have more evidence for the existence of God ... than I have for the existence of anyone else that I've never met.

Really? How interesting. Could you share it, please?

A_Thinker · Nov 9, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Let's think about it logically. It's true, you do have communication from someone claiming to be me, and you do have communication from someone claiming to be God.
A few thoughts.
First of all, you're talking to me now. That's something you've never experience with God, and I'll bet you never will. No, I don't mean a feeling in your heart, or a voice in your head. I mean, actually talking to someone.
Second of all, are you seriously saying you don't believe I exist? So who do you think is talking to you? A person pretending to be Interested Atheist? Rather pointless, since you don't know the real me anyway. A chat bot? Possible, but again, what would be the point? And besides which, there are ways of checking for chatbots. Now, if you really want to be pedantic, no, you don't know that I'm a living person, but you can safely assume that I am. Because if not, if you're going to stretch the point to absurdity and say "I cannot know that IA is a real person, therefore I will assume that he is not" then why are you talking to me?

Has he, though? Really, has he? Can you tell me something that God has done for you that would be impossible in a universe (a hypothetical one, if you like) in which God does not exist?
Has God ever spoken to you aloud, or appeared in front of you? And did you catch it on camera? Has God ever given you knowledge it is impossible for you to have had on your own? These may appear to be rather searching inquiries, but this is an important question.
Or is it just that you have experienced good feelings and good luck since becoming a Christian?

Well, yes. And it's certainly not impossible that the person typing this could be someone else - a Christian, for example, taking pleasure in trolling other Christians? Seems pretty far-fetched, doesn't it?
But again - if it is not Interested Atheist typing these words, then what do you think it is? An artificial intelligence? That's rather pointless, and can, in principle, be tested. Or a person near you, playing games with you for some twisted reason? Rather paranoid. It seems the only reasonable assumption is that the person writing this is some person unknown to you who enjoys debating Christians. Which is exactly what I always said I am.
The photograph, by the way, is not me, and I don't believe I ever said it was. It's Edmund Blackadder, played by Rowan Atkinson. The Elizabethan ruff and doublet rather give it away.

Really? How interesting. Could you share it, please?

My point is not that I don't have sufficient reason to believe in your existence.

My point is that I have just as much, if not more, reasons to believe in God's existence.

I mentioned before that God has done some things for me, for which the only other explanations, would be quite unimaginable coincidences.

1. I have been a believer since my youth. The first instance of God making a distinguishable event in my life ... was when I first began attending college. I attended the college's registration, having withdrawn from my savings the monies necessary to pay for my classes, fees, insurance, etc. In effect, the bill from my registration.

I proceeded through the registration process ... and after a couple hours, was prepared to finish registration by making payment. As I stood before the desk to pay, I reached for .... and realized I had forgotten my payment monies. At that point, I was faced with a dilemma ... there was only left for me to depart the campus, travel back to "home" where I had left my payment funds ... and return and go through the registration process all over again.

Unfortunately, there were a few negatives about pursuing such a course. One, I wasn't sure if the necessary time remained for me to accomplish this before registration was closed for the day. Two, I wasn't at all sure I could secure spots in my desired classes ... if I were to begin again. I had already been forced to make such an accomodation due to the lack of access to my first choice of classes ... and I feared that if I didn't complete the process I had just put a couple hours into, that I would forfeit being able to take the classes I wished to that semester.

But what else could I do ? This was before I acquired any credit cards, and there were no funds in any checking account available to me to cover the registration cost.

I felt defeated and frustrated ... and I prepared to relay my story to the payment officer and make my way out of line. Just before I did so, however, ... an inner voice whispered to me to check my pockets for any random funds I might have on me. My first response to this was to dismiss it out of hand ... but the inner voice persisted. What would it hurt to check ? I regularly carried random bills (likely ones) and loose change, ... but, once again, nothing like what I needed to pay the registration bill.

But I conceded to rifle through my pockets. There were some bills there ... and some change, so I proceeded to pull them out and count out what I had. To my shock and amazement, I was able to put together exactly what I needed, almost to the penny, to pay the registration bill. I gladly paid and so, completed my first time college registration. I had a few pennies left over.

When I went "home", the first thing I did was check where I had left my registration monies ... and, sure enough, they were still there ... exactly where I had left them.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 9, 2019

and also, HOW do we KNOW....

in SPIRIT, as written and stated CLEARLY in Scripture.

A_Thinker · Nov 9, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
I have more evidence for the existence of God ... than I have for the existence of anyone else that I've never met.

InterestedAtheist said:
Really? How interesting. Could you share it, please?

On another occasion, I was having some car work done. The incident was quite similar to my college registration situation.

When it came to the time to pay for the completed repairs, I realized that I didn't have the funds I had allocated for payment with me.

Once again, an inner voice advised me to check my pockets to see what I did have. Again, relunctantly I did so, only to find that I had enough spare change and bills to make the necessary payment. Once again, I had a penny or two left.

A different story is drawn from the days I used to work delivering newspapers in the early morning. On January 25, 1978, I got up, got dressed ... and made my way to my car ... to head to the newspaper station to get my papers (I usually delivered 300 on weekday mornings, 450 on Sundays). It was snowing ... and there was about 6 inches of snow on the ground, but delivering newspapers (especially back then) was like delivering the mails ... neither snow, nor sleet, nor gloom of night ... was sufficient justification ... not to deleiver your route.

As I drove to the paper station, I noticed that I didn't see a lot of traffic out. When I arrived at the paper station, I (happily, perhaps) observed that my papers were not present, ... and therefore, I was off of the hook. The snow continued as I made my way home, and by the time I arrived, had accumulated another couple inches. I parked my car in front of the house, and made my way back inside. When I got inside, my mother informed me that there was a blizzard warning, and that all street traffic had been suspended until further notice.

May mom suggested that perhaps I should move my car off of the streets ... and into the driveway to make way for snow plows coming through. I went to my car ... and found that I could not start it. I struggled to start the car for a half-hour or so ... before I gave up. Ultimately, the car didn't start for another week.

In the meantime, my area experienced the most major blizzard that I have seen in my 60 years of existence. We ultimately got 20 inches of snow, the temperatures plumetted, ... and traffic was suspended for days until the streets were cleared. Ultimately, the storm took 11 lives, ... and my mother confided in me ... that it was only the grace of God that got me home in the storm to park in front of my home, ... in a car that didn't start again for a week.

InterestedAtheist · Nov 9, 2019

Okay. Thanks for sharing. I don't mean this unkindly, but this is a very poor standard of evidence.

I'll let Richard Dawkins take it up from here (emphasis mine):

“Many people believe in God because they believe they have seen a vision of him - or of an angel or a virgin in blue - with their own eyes. Or he speaks to them inside their heads. This argument from personal experience is the one that is most convincing to those who claim to have had one. But it is the least convincing to anyone else, and anyone knowledgeable about psychology.
You say you have experienced God directly? Well, some people have experienced a pink elephant, but that probably doesn't impress you. Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, distinctly heard the voice of Jesus telling him to kill women, and he was locked up for life. George W. Bush says that God told him to invade Iraq (a pity God didn't vouchsafe him a revelation that there were no weapons of mass destruction). Individuals in asylums think they are Napoleon or Charlie Chaplin, or that the entire world is conspiring against them, or that they can broadcast their thoughts into other people's heads. We humour them but don't take their internally revealed beliefs seriously."

Excerpt From: Dawkins, Richard. “The God Delusion.”

In short, hearing a voice in your head is not proof of anything. You yourself would not take a story like that as proof from someone who believes in a God you do not believe in, and you'd be right. People hear imaginary friends talk to them all the time, but does this mean they exist?

On the day the storm happened, which claimed eleven lives, that means that...thousands? millions? of people did not die. Your survival doesn't sound like much of a miracle to me.

Sanoy · Nov 10, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
A rationalisation. Israel may be God's portion, but the God of the Bible is now worshipped by millions all over the world, and here you are saying that they should not expect to see God's power because they are not included in the tiny fraction of humanity that the God of the Bible was worshipped by back in the day. This is, of course, contradicted by the fact that there are claims of God's miracles wherever people worship Him.
So yes, nothing but a rationalisation, a demonstration of the ad hoc fallacy.

Got it. Perhaps you'd like to pop over there and inform them they're all praying in the wrong way?
Or perhaps you'd like to find me some examples of Christians who are actually praying for impossible things?
I don't think you can, because there aren't any, because Christians know better than to ask God to do impossible things. If God is real, this is curious. God is famous for being able to perform miracles, it's one of the most well-known elements of the Bible.
On the other hand, if God is nothing more than a character in a story, that explains why He can only do things in stories.

(Shrug) HULK NO SEE NO ONE TO FIGHT. HULK GO BACK WAIT TILL SANOY ACCEPTS CHALLENGE. SANOY NEVER TRY ANSWER QUESTIONS. HULK THINK THIS FUNNY.

I would have thought that someone who was warned they were being less than Christian in their responses would care more. Up to you, of course.

How about you tell me why my statement is wrong and yours is right? Repeating the same assertion that I am rationalizing doesn't make this miracle a global or even regional miracle. The present has nothing to do with the purpose of this Bible passage. You want to claim your right, then tell me why your right, and why I'm wrong.

I don't need to do anything regarding what Christians pray. You made the claim, you back it up with credible evidence. HULK is quite right, there is no one here to FIGHT, nor looking for it. There is just a line of people waiting for the evidence/reason for the claims of some of the atheists around here. So I guess Bruce shows up to ask questions and HULK shows up to what...fight? I guess both are pretty pointless here then.

InterestedAtheist · Nov 10, 2019

Sanoy said:
How about you tell me why my statement is wrong and yours is right? Repeating the same assertion that I am rationalizing doesn't make this miracle a global or even regional miracle. The present has nothing to do with the purpose of this Bible passage. You want to claim your right, then tell me why your right, and why I'm wrong.

You're mistaken because you seem to think there is some reason why a story that appears in the Christian Bible, about the God that all Christians believe in, should be ignored by Christians. Essentially, that's what you're saying. I'm saying, why don't Christians ask God to show Himself, as Elijah did? and you're answering, if I understand you correctly, that God won't or shouldn't do this because this miracle is only for the Israelites. And I'm saying, that doesn't follow. God is God. He has performed miracles throughout the Old Testament, the New Testament and, allegedly, the last two thousand years.

Again, the main point is this: why does God never do anything impossible? The stories say that He can. But He only ever does so in stories, never in real life. The sensible explanation for this seems to be that He is nothing but a character in a story. If you think God is real, we have to ask why Christians don't behave as if He is real. You've avoided addressing this question, and I think it's because you can't (that's what I'd think if I was in your shoes).
You say that the Prayer Section of a major Christian website is illegitimate, which is obviously incorrect, and you say that Elijah's miracle doesn't count because it was only intended for a tiny audience. This is obviously ad hoc, aka the "made it up" fallacy.

Sanoy said:
I don't need to do anything regarding what Christians pray.

Of course you don't need to do anything if you don't want to. A challenge has been made. You are at perfect liberty to ignore it if you can't meet it, or if you don't feel like trying.

Sanoy said:
You made the claim, you back it up with credible evidence.

Sure thing.
Here is the Prayer Wall. Let's see...
Pray for people battling cancer, not pray that all cancer be immediately cured, as the lepers in the Bible were.
Dad in hospital.
Deep seated anger.
Financial blessings to repair scooter.
Prayer for my upper back.
And on, and on, and on. All prayers for things which are perfectly possible. People do get better. Lost things are found. People do get over bad feelings.
Okay, I've put my money where my mouth is. Now let's see you do the same, if you can. Find me some prayers there for things which are actually impossible. Find me prayers for real miracles. What's the ratio? 1:1? 2:3? 1:100?

If God doesn't actually exist, this is just what you'd expect to see. People wouldn't be asking God for actual miracles, because they know, from experience and common sense, that these kinds of prayers never get answered.

If God does exist, however - you know, the God who brought people back from the dead, and cured illnesses miraculously, and parted seas, and manifested as a pillar of fire - well, why aren't people praying for miracles like that?

Sanoy said:
HULK is quite right, there is no one here to FIGHT, nor looking for it. There is just a line of people waiting for the evidence/reason for the claims of some of the atheists around here. So I guess Bruce shows up to ask questions and HULK shows up to what...fight? I guess both are pretty pointless here then.

Actually, that's not the way it works. We atheists don't generally give arguments against God. We watch Christians build them, give them a gentle push to see how strong they are, and then watch them crumble. Which is more or less what's happening here. You seem to be projecting your own disengagement problem, Sanoy. It's not me who's hanging back. It's you. I've given you my challenge - find me some Christians who actually pray for the impossible - but you refuse to take me up on it.

Even Christians know that God doesn't actually work miracles these days. That's why they don't pray for them.

Can you prove this wrong?

There you go. That's what the Credible Hulk sounds like. Can you beat him?

Sanoy · Nov 10, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
You're mistaken because you seem to think there is some reason why a story that appears in the Christian Bible, about the God that all Christians believe in, should be ignored by Christians. Essentially, that's what you're saying. I'm saying, why don't Christians ask God to show Himself, as Elijah did? and you're answering, if I understand you correctly, that God won't or shouldn't do this because this miracle is only for the Israelites. And I'm saying, that doesn't follow. God is God. He has performed miracles throughout the Old Testament, the New Testament and, allegedly, the last two thousand years.

Again, the main point is this: why does God never do anything impossible? The stories say that He can. But He only ever does so in stories, never in real life. The sensible explanation for this seems to be that He is nothing but a character in a story. If you think God is real, we have to ask why Christians don't behave as if He is real. You've avoided addressing this question, and I think it's because you can't (that's what I'd think if I was in your shoes).
You say that the Prayer Section of a major Christian website is illegitimate, which is obviously incorrect, and you say that Elijah's miracle doesn't count because it was only intended for a tiny audience. This is obviously ad hoc, aka the "made it up" fallacy.

Of course you don't need to do anything if you don't want to. A challenge has been made. You are at perfect liberty to ignore it if you can't meet it, or if you don't feel like trying.

Sure thing.
Here is the Prayer Wall. Let's see...
Pray for people battling cancer, not pray that all cancer be immediately cured, as the lepers in the Bible were.
Dad in hospital.
Deep seated anger.
Financial blessings to repair scooter.
Prayer for my upper back.
And on, and on, and on. All prayers for things which are perfectly possible. People do get better. Lost things are found. People do get over bad feelings.
Okay, I've put my money where my mouth is. Now let's see you do the same, if you can. Find me some prayers there for things which are actually impossible. Find me prayers for real miracles. What's the ratio? 1:1? 2:3? 1:100?

If God doesn't actually exist, this is just what you'd expect to see. People wouldn't be asking God for actual miracles, because they know, from experience and common sense, that these kinds of prayers never get answered.

If God does exist, however - you know, the God who brought people back from the dead, and cured illnesses miraculously, and parted seas, and manifested as a pillar of fire - well, why aren't people praying for miracles like that?

Actually, that's not the way it works. We atheists don't generally give arguments against God. We watch Christians build them, give them a gentle push to see how strong they are, and then watch them crumble. Which is more or less what's happening here. You seem to be projecting your own disengagement problem, Sanoy. It's not me who's hanging back. It's you. I've given you my challenge - find me some Christians who actually pray for the impossible - but you refuse to take me up on it.

Even Christians know that God doesn't actually work miracles these days. That's why they don't pray for them.

Can you prove this wrong?

There you go. That's what the Credible Hulk sounds like. Can you beat him?

I asked you to tell me why I am wrong about my 1 Kings 18 which you claimed I rationalized. I saw absolutely nothing in that reply as to why this chapter was a global miracle or why my statement that it was a only a local miracle was wrong. I will ask you again to support your assertion that I have rationalized the meaning of this verse.

You made the claim that Christians only pray for things they know are going to happen anyway. You need to back that up. Pointing to the prayer wall as the standard of Christian prayer is not that. When you have some credible representation let me know.

List of claims you need to back up.

They know perfectly well that these are things that are impossible, and that there's no point in asking God to grant impossible prayers, because He never does.
But you never see Christians praying for things that don’t happen naturally, that could only happen supernaturally.
Even Christians know that God doesn't actually work miracles these days. That's why they don't pray for them.
The story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal was not a local miracle and it's rationalizing to think that it was.

Speak for antitheists if you want but you shouldn't speak for athiests because they are nothing like you. You admit that antitheists like yourself don't give arguments against God, and you apparently don't give evidence/reasons for your beliefs, or evidence/reasons for your claims. So it appears you have come to the wrong forum because the SOP states - As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. The burden for your claims are yours, start backing them up Mr "Credible Hulk".

InterestedAtheist · Nov 10, 2019

I'm sorry if you're having trouble following, Sanoy.

Sanoy said:
I asked you to tell me why I am wrong about my 1 Kings 18 which you claimed I rationalized. I saw absolutely nothing in that reply as to why this chapter was a global miracle or why my statement that it was a only a local miracle was wrong. I will ask you again to support your assertion that I have rationalized the meaning of this verse.

Certainly.
I never said that it was a global miracle. It appears that you misread or misunderstood me. I said that it was a miracle whose meaning could be understood by any Christian all over the world (as indeed it is - all Christians worldwide know the story of Elijah, at least if they know their Bibles). It is you who needs substantiate your curious claim that the miracle should be ignored by anyone except the people who were its audience at the time. Please feel free to do so by saying:
"The miracle that Elijah performed was only relevant to the immediate audience because __________".

Sanoy said:
You made the claim that Christians only pray for things they know are going to happen anyway. You need to back that up. Pointing to the prayer wall as the standard of Christian prayer is not that. When you have some credible representation let me know.

No, I didn't make that claim. This is not the first time you've said that I did, so please read this carefully - it only undermines your credibility when you strawman.
I did not say that Christians only pray for things they know are going to happen anyway. That would be not make sense at all. I said - as is clearly the case - that Christians only pray for things which could happen naturally.
Since I've made this point a number of times now, I'm baffled as to how you can keep missing it.
Oh, and by the way: if you keep saying that the Prayer Wall of "Christian Forums" does not represent Christian thought, perhaps you'd like to pop over there and tell them to stop praying?

Sanoy said:
They know perfectly well that these are things that are impossible, and that there's no point in asking God to grant impossible prayers, because He never does.

Sounds reasonable to me. All you have to do to disprove me is find some examples of Christians praying for genuine miracles.

Sanoy said:
But you never see Christians praying for things that don’t happen naturally, that could only happen supernaturally.

I stand by that statement. Of course, I haven't heard or read every prayer a Christian has ever made. Perhaps you can find some examples to show me I'm wrong?

Sanoy said:
Even Christians know that God doesn't actually work miracles these days. That's why they don't pray for them.

Sanoy, do you realise that the first, second and third quotes you just made are all me saying the same thing in different ways? It's not three points, it's one. And in each case, my answer is clearly the same.
Not that I mind these errors of yours. I'm in a patient mood, and it's to my advantage if my sparring partner in a debate makes mistakes.

Sanoy said:
The story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal was not a local miracle and it's rationalizing to think that it was.

Did I say it was not a local miracle? It certainly was, as it was seen by only the people in the immediate area. But it has been read about by billions of people all over the world, and is now a part of the Jewish and Christian religions.
That clearly being the case, I find your insistence that modern-day Christians should pay no attention to it to be puzzling in the extreme. Are you able to explain yourself?

Sanoy said:
Speak for antitheists if you want but you shouldn't speak for athiests because they are nothing like you.

Perhaps we should have a vote on that, with atheists only allowed to vote? You could ask them about this.
In point of fact, pointing out the flaws in Christian logic is a very atheistic thing to do, and the reason most of us nonbelievers are on these forums.

Sanoy said:
Antitheists like yourself don't give arguments against God according to what you just said, and apparently they don't give evidence/reasons for their beliefs, or evidence/reasons for their claims.

If you don't understand the arguments I've made, then I'm sorry. I'll continue to make them in the clearest, simplest terms I have. But your insistence that I'm not making arguments when I clearly am is only making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Sanoy said:
So it appears you have come to the wrong forum because the SOP states - As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. The burden for your claims are yours, start backing them up Mr "Credible Hulk".

Sure. I've done so. Again, and again, and again. I'm just interested to see if and when you will respond to them. So far, all you seem to want to do is ignore them. You carry on that way if you like, of course. While I prefer an opponent who can understand what I'm saying and respond to my arguments, it's not necessarily a disadvantage to have someone who acts irrationally.

Now, in the clearest possible language I can manage, so that there is no chance of a miscommunication:

All example of Christian prayer that I have seen are of Christians asking for things which could happen naturally. I have not seen examples of Christians asking for miracles. As evidence of this, I offer the Prayer Wall of this forum.

Please either show me examples of how Christians there are asking for miracles from God, or else explain exactly why their prayers are not representative of Christians.

Please explain why you think God would, should or could not perform a miracle on the same scale as the one He performed for Elijah.

The ball's in your court, Sanoy. I'll be interested to see how you answer, if you can.

A_Thinker · Nov 10, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
In short, hearing a voice in your head is not proof of anything. You yourself would not take a story like that as proof from someone who believes in a God you do not believe in, and you'd be right. People hear imaginary friends talk to them all the time, but does this mean they exist?

It's not so much the voice in my head (I'm sure you have them as well)
... as it is the unexpected results of heeding that voice.

InterestedAtheist said:
On the day the storm happened, which claimed eleven lives, that means that...thousands? millions? of people did not die. Your survival doesn't sound like much of a miracle to me.

It wasn't just survival. It was getting me to a place of safety, comfort, and convenience ... in a car that died upon arrival at home.

These are just a few of my experiences with God's interaction in my life.

I have had multiple experiences of, say, sitting at a stop light which has turned green for no discernible reason ... UNTIL another car running the light comes flying across the intersection ...

InterestedAtheist · Nov 10, 2019

A_Thinker said:
It's not so much the voice in my head (I'm sure you have them as well)
... as it is the unexpected results of heeding that voice.

It wasn't just survival. It was getting me to a place of safety, comfort, and convenience ... in a car that died upon arrival at home.

These are just a few of my experiences with God's interaction in my life.

I have had multiple experiences of, say, sitting at a stop light which has turned green for no discernible reason ... UNTIL another car running the light comes flying across the intersection ...

Don't you think it's a little strange, though, that God is intervening in your life in such a coy way (tiny prompts, hidden signs instead of just straight out talking to you? And also strange when He surely has better things to do?

Can I direct your attention to this article:
God in a Coffee Stain - Daylight Atheism
Especially this part:
Back in the mid-1980s, a man promised God he would give 25 cents for every extra shave he got from his Bic disposable. To his amazement, he began getting 80 and 90 shaves instead of his usual four or five. Other men from his church joined in, with similar results.
At the time, I was an editor for a denominational magazine. We thought the story inspiring and published it. On the cover we featured the participants – all lathered up and holding aloft their razors. What a miracle.
But the readers didn’t all share our enthusiasm. One poignant letter went
something like: Yesterday a young mother of three learned she had terminal cancer. Yesterday a little boy chased a ball into the street and was killed. Yesterday millions went to bed hungry. And where was God during all this? He was busy sharpening Bic razors.

Now couldn't we say a similar thing to you?
The other day, a child was being raped. A man died of a curable disease because he didn't have money enough to pay for an operation. A million children died of hunger. And where was God when all of this was happening?
He was fiddling with traffic lights.

And can I also ask you to consider this question: is it possible that these effects you have told me, and the many others as well, might have happened in the absence of God? Is it possible that the voice you heard in your head was just imagination, and that your getitng home safe was just coincidence? I'm not asking you to say that God doesn't exist. I'm not asking you to say that God probably doesn't exist. But will you concede that it's possibe for the things you've recounted to have happened in the absence of God?

I mean, surely not every instance of good luck is God directly intervening in our lives, is it?

A_Thinker · Nov 10, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Don't you think it's a little strange, though, that God is intervening in your life in such a coy way (tiny prompts, hidden signs instead of just straight out talking to you? And also strange when He surely has better things to do?

This is presumptive. Few people can predict the intricacies of the relationships of others. If I had a pen pal, such is the type of communication I would be receiving.

Nothing necessarily constant, intuitively applicable, or earth-shattering. Just a "How're you doing ?" from time to time.

InterestedAtheist said:
But the readers didn’t all share our enthusiasm. One poignant letter went
something like: Yesterday a young mother of three learned she had terminal cancer. Yesterday a little boy chased a ball into the street and was killed. Yesterday millions went to bed hungry. And where was God during all this? He was busy sharpening Bic razors.

Now couldn't we say a similar thing to you?

The other day, a child was being raped. A man died of a curable disease because he didn't have money enough to pay for an operation. A million children died of hunger. And where was God when all of this was happening?

He was fiddling with traffic lights.

We certainly have difficulties in our lives. I've had mine.

What strikes me about your listing is that, perhaps, God has already gifted us with the means to overcome the difficulties you mention ... but we are too busy fighting among ourselves for our own interests, ... rather than working together to achieve the best that we can.

It's been well documented that there is enough food produced to feed all the world adequately. The problem is that mankind controls the distribution. So some get too much, and some get too little ... and we, as a whole, are not too exercised about resolving that issue.

Child-rape has been going on for far too long. Men determined that it was better to cater to the "rights" of those so accused, rather than the voices of the victims.

Our circumstances test OUR MORALS. If we had no such tests, we would never see a need to clamber any further up the moral ladder. Perhaps God allows such tragedies to inspire us (i.e. humanity) to strive for better responses. In the Bible story of the "Good Samaritan", the tragedy wasn't as much the fact that one man was attacked by others, ... but that other so-called good moral men walked by a man desperately in need of assistance ... without offering so much as a prayer.

Perhaps the answer is not so much to look to God to solve all of our issues, but for US to use what we already have to do much better than we have so far.

InterestedAtheist · Nov 10, 2019

A_Thinker said:
This is presumptive. Few people can predict the intricacies of the relationships of others. If I had a pen pal, such is the type of communication I would be receiving.
Nothing necessarily constant, intuitively applicable, or earth-shattering. Just a "How're you doing ?" from time to time.

We certainly have difficulties in our lives. I've had mine.

What strikes me about your listing is that, perhaps, God had gifted us with the means to overcome the difficulties you mention ... but we are too busy fighting among ourselves for our own interests, ... rather than working together to achieve the best that we can.

It's been well documented that there is enough food produced to feed all the world adequately. The problem is that mankind controls the distribution. So some get too much, and some get too little ... and we, as a whole, are not too exercised about resolving that issue.

Child-rape has been going on for far too long. Men determined that it was better to cater to the "rights" of those so accused, rather than the voices of the victims.

Our circumstances test OUR MORALS. Of we had no such tests, we would never see a need to clamber any further up the moral ladder. Perhaps God allows such tragedies to inspire us (i.e. humanity) to strive for a better response. In the Bible story of the "Good Samaritan", the tragedy wasn't as much the fact that one man was attacked by others, ... but that other so-called moral men walked by a man desperately in need of assistance ... without offering so much as a prayer.

Perhaps the answer is not so much to look to God to solve all of our issues, but for US to use what we already have to do much better than we have so far.

Well, well. That all needs a lot of unravelling, and I'm afraid I'm going to bed now. See you again later!

FireDragon76 · Nov 10, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
Don't you think it's a little strange, though, that God is intervening in your life in such a coy way (tiny prompts, hidden signs instead of just straight out talking to you? And also strange when He surely has better things to do?

I don't think it's so much about what God should or shouldn't be like, but more about the fact that a large percentage of people have those types of experiences (Jung called them synchronicities). A Buddhist or Hindu might explain those in terms of karmic affinity, mystic law, or somesuch, but a Christian happens to explain them in terms of interaction with an anthropomorphic being.

What does the Bible teach about physical abuse?

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