Misogyny is disgusting

Paidiske

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I also don't want to tell you about the long-standing tradition of women writing books and novels that create such 'perfect men'(who, by the way, are almost always conventionally attractive men that are willing to drop everything and possibly die for some girl they barely know)that women start to become dissatisfied with their own husbands ....

I'm going to extrapolate from my own experience as a wife here, and say that if women are dissatisfied with our husbands, it's not because we've read about "perfect men" but because of our actual, lived experience of our husbands.

Most women don't want or expect a perfect man. We just want someone who will treat marriage (and, crucially, parenting) as a team effort, and pull their weight within that.

The importance of divorce is that it allows an escape from abuse. Which brings us neatly back around to the topic of the thread... too bad some of us can't so easily "divorce" our parents!
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I'm going to extrapolate from my own experience as a wife here, and say that if women are dissatisfied with our husbands, it's not because we've read about "perfect men" but because of our actual, lived experience of our husbands.

Most women don't want or expect a perfect man. We just want someone who will treat marriage (and, crucially, parenting) as a team effort, and pull their weight within that.

The importance of divorce is that it allows an escape from abuse. Which brings us neatly back around to the topic of the thread... too bad some of us can't so easily "divorce" our parents!

To clarify, I was giving it as an example that men aren't the only ones who objectify. Women do it just as much--if not more(in the teen years mainly). And with the books creating problems in marriages; I was only referring to testimonies I've read of women having unrealistic expectations of their husbands because the husbands were a little more...well, 'boring'. The issue is that those women would spend their time being dissatisfied instead of...you know, talking to their husband about it. Obviously this isn't all women, of course.

I agree divorce is fine in the cases of cheating and abuse. But I doubt 50% of all divorces(the current divorce rate in the US) is because of abuse and cheating.
 
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Paidiske

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To clarify, I was giving it as an example that men aren't the only ones who objectify. Women do it just as much--if not more(in the teen years mainly).

It's true that women also objectify men.

And with the books creating problems in marriages; I was only referring to testimonies I've read of women having unrealistic expectations of their husbands because the husbands were a little more...well, 'boring'. The issue is that those women would spend their time being dissatisfied instead of...you know, talking to their husband about it. Obviously this isn't all women, of course.

Hmm. They sound pretty immature, and probably not really ready for marriage in the first place.

I agree divorce is fine in the cases of cheating and abuse. But I doubt 50% of all divorces(the current divorce rate in the US) is because of abuse and cheating.

It wouldn't all be, no. But I'm a bit wary about denouncing a high divorce rate as somehow some terrible social evil, when the alternatives can be pretty grim as well.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Hmm. They sound pretty immature, and probably not really ready for marriage in the first place.

Exactly. And media isn't helping(refer to the 'male otaku obsessed with anime girls' bit). Men and women these days are both extremely immature--not to mention incredibly privileged. Especially women on that last bit.

It wouldn't all be, no. But I'm a bit wary about denouncing a high divorce rate as somehow some terrible social evil, when the alternatives can be pretty grim as well.

I'm not saying we should outlaw divorce. My point was that the divorce rate, if anything, is probably a product of the immaturity that comes with the cushy society we live in now where everything is acceptable, and any responsibility can be voided with the right excuse. And...lots of sexual immorality. Premarital sex, cheating, wife/husband swapping...you name it.
 
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Paidiske

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Exactly. And media isn't helping(refer to the 'male otaku obsessed with anime girls' bit). Men and women these days are both extremely immature--not to mention incredibly privileged. Especially women on that last bit.

I don't know. When I do marriage preparation with couples, on the whole I'm pretty impressed with their maturity and readiness to make that commitment with each other. Of course marriage is a learning curve, but on the whole, by the time people come to it they seem ready to take on that learning curve.

I do think it helps if people have lived away from their parents and managed their own lives for a while. The couples I worry about tend to be the ones where one or both of them are coming straight from living with mummy and daddy and have never had to take on adult responsibilities in their own lives.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I don't know. When I do marriage preparation with couples, on the whole I'm pretty impressed with their maturity and readiness to make that commitment with each other. Of course marriage is a learning curve, but on the whole, by the time people come to it they seem ready to take on that learning curve.

I do think it helps if people have lived away from their parents and managed their own lives for a while. The couples I worry about tend to be the ones where one or both of them are coming straight from living with mummy and daddy and have never had to take on adult responsibilities in their own lives.

I wouldn't take marriage preparation as a very big indicator. I'd look at the people who have lived together as man and wife for more than a year or two--of course a lot of couples are going to be getting along nicely before they're actually married. Being married and actually living through it challenges people in ways they never thought possible. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, we have a 50% divorce rate and I'm seeing people in my generation for example(I'm 19)making a lot of...very bad decisions early on, and forming very bad habits. It's already affecting them negatively.
 
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Paidiske

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I wouldn't take marriage preparation as a very big indicator. I'd look at the people who have lived together as man and wife for more than a year or two--of course a lot of couples are going to be getting along nicely before they're actually married. Being married and actually living through it challenges people in ways they never thought possible. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, we have a 50% divorce rate and I'm seeing people in my generation for example(I'm 19)making a lot of...very bad decisions early on, and forming very bad habits. It's already affecting them negatively.

I'm not saying that in marriage preparation they have everything figured out; but that the couples I'm seeing in marriage preparation seem to me, on the whole, to have a pretty mature approach to marriage.

I'm 20 years older than you, and I'm pretty clear that people in their late teens making bad decisions is nothing new; most of us do manage to grow past them, though. :)

The big exception to that (people growing past their early mistakes) is probably issues to do with addiction.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I'm not saying that in marriage preparation they have everything figured out; but that the couples I'm seeing in marriage preparation seem to me, on the whole, to have a pretty mature approach to marriage.

I'm 20 years older than you, and I'm pretty clear that people in their late teens making bad decisions is nothing new; most of us do manage to grow past them, though. :)

The big exception to that (people growing past their early mistakes) is probably issues to do with addiction.

Neither you nor I know what goes on behind closed doors. And to be fair, I've seen a good amount of older people also not grow out of their 'bad habits'. In fact, a great lot of my extended family falls into that category. I don't even want to go over how many people(either my age or older)whom I've met whos parents divorced.

50% divorce rate. I'm leaving it there.
 
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Paidiske

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50% divorce rate. I'm leaving it there.

So what?

So 50% of marriages end before the death of a spouse. In many cases, the ending of those marriages is definitely the lesser evil. Yes, it would be great if everyone had a healthy, loving marriage for as long as they both shall live. But that's not reality.

But while there might be lots of things in our society worth kvetching about, this just doesn't strike me as being one of them. Take responsibility for your own growth in maturity and preparation to be a good spouse, and leave the rest to the consciences of the people concerned. They don't need us moralising at them.

This whole tangent of the conversation started when you suggested that a father seeking to "protect" his (adult) daughter's virginity was perfectly fine. But I'd suggest that the kind of obsessive policing of women's behaviour implied in that is likely to contribute to marital misery and a high divorce rate, rather than actually trusting grown women to make decisions about love, relationships, marriage and sex which are healthy and appropriate.
 
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Kylie

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That's because a lot of people find men who use women just for sexual pleasure to be disgusting(including myself)--same with the teen boys who enjoy 'cherry picking' young girl's virginities. Traditionally, boys were supposed to be raised into responsible young men capable of owning up to his actions are MARRYING a girl if he wanted to sleep with her. Funny how all that's gone down the chute now and people are complaining about men not being 'manly enough'.

I don't follow.

I ask why you don't complain about boys not keeping their virginity, and you tell me it's because you think it's disgusting when they don't remain virgins? But isn't that the exact same reason why you are complaining about the girls?

It goes both ways. And for one, women are impacted a lot differently than men by sex. Men are naturally a lot more sexually driven, but with most women, sex has a lot more to do with emotions. To the point where apparently it's a scientific fact that women enjoy sex more if it's with someone, they're emotionally involved with. Now, what's the danger here? Emotions as a whole are unreliable. Emotions don't think the cute summer crush you have is going to be gone by college, or that your 'first love' is more often than not the 'first step in a long line of trial and error'. I also didn't call anyone 'used merchandise' or say that anyone loses value just because they had sex. I pointed it out because you can often tell a lot about a person based on how they treat sex. Most people don't stop to think 'maybe my future spouse would want me to save myself for him/her'. They think 'oh, well he/she should just be fine with it 'cuz they love me'. Selfish much?

Just out of curiosity, are you a man or a woman? Because I enjoy sex from a physical side of things. I'm pretty much incapable of having any more children, but I still love sex. And I've had sexy time with long term partners, and also people who I've liked but didn't plan on a long term relationship with.

And what does a future spouse gain if you are a virgin when you marry them? What is gained by saving yourself for them?

I'm assuming you live under a rock, because even back in the old days where women were more commonly the 'reward' in a movie, I recall the man at least being a gentleman and taking the time to protect her and appreciate her. Furthermore, I would like to point out how many women have ridiculous standards for men--but when they're held to the same standards themselves(such as romantic discrimination about weight) they cry 'MISOGYNY!!!'. I also don't want to tell you about the long-standing tradition of women writing books and novels that create such 'perfect men'(who, by the way, are almost always conventionally attractive men that are willing to drop everything and possibly die for some girl they barely know)that women start to become dissatisfied with their own husbands much in the same way otakus become dissatisfied with real women because of anime. Oh yeah...and let's not forget about all of the young and adult women that fetishize gay men and reduce celebrities to nothing but pieces of meat. Why don't you compare the male/female ratio of lemon fanfics based on real-life celebrity men?

Tell ya what, you give me a list of movies where a man treats a woman as something more than an item to be desired, and I'll give you a list twice as long where the woman is a reward for the hero once he's saved the day, okay?

And as for the double standards, show me women publicly making comments about how guys should be ashamed for not being physically perfect. Because some of the stuff (read: a lot of the stuff) that women get is telling us that we should kill ourselves for the slightest imperfection, or that we should be raped for not being a breathing sex toy.

Sorry, I forgot to state that I have a strong bias against the mainstream women in power.

Yes, you do seem like someone who finds a woman in a position of power threatening.

I didn't say it would. I pointed out that even though we achieved what we wanted(which was originally the ability to have sex outside of marriage and divorce be socially acceptable)things have been worse, not better.

Why do you think there is any connection at all?

Great for those 20 women. I appreciate what they've done for our country--but 20 women(not all of which were even in ground combat)are not going to make me think that the physically weaker gender should be on the battlefield. Air force? Sure. Engineer? Fine. Medic? Awesome. But not ground combat.

Yeah, because only a big tough strong man can aim a gun and pull a trigger!

You really need to figure out why you don't like women having power, and sort that out.
 
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gaara4158

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I just posted a joke window decal. I've made no comment on what the rapper does, although I'm guessing T.I. stands for "The Idiot".
Look at what I was replying to. You specifically said that the decal implies a mistrust of teenage boys more than a mistrust of his own daughter. This means that you believe if your daughter has sex, it was more the boy’s decision than it was hers. So again, unless we’re talking about physical force, you’re implying that your daughter’s ability to say “no” is weaker than any given boy’s ability to seduce her.
Lesser in what way?
Lesser in agency. Lesser in the ability to manifest one’s desired outcome. Lesser in the ability to make sound decisions. You think that if your daughter had sex, she must have been tricked or coerced, because it’s impossible that she might have just been ready and willing. But if your son had sex, he’s a go-getter. That’s misogyny.
 
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Quackduck

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My husband never treated our daughters, who are now in their 40s, like little princesses, he expected the same from them as he would from lads, which I thought was admirable. Admittedly they did complain when he was arm wrestling them as he has never known his own strength.
 
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comana

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I think having her hymen checked is obsessive, but I don't think there's anything wrong with protecting your daughter's virginity. Especially when almost all women seem to be careless enough to just 'give away' their special v-card on account of infatuation that scientifically doesn't even last more than 2 years in most cases.
Inspecting a woman's hymen to prove her virginity is wrong period! It also is not a reliable indicator of prior intercourse and speaks nothing of alternative sexual acts. Requiring this is not an act of "protecting a daughter's virginity" it is an act of abusive control.

A woman doesn't "give away" her virginity. It is not an object. Sex is an experience and when one chooses to experience sex they are not giving a "thing" to anyone. Regardless of how you may judge others on when they choose to have sex for the first time, it is their choice to make.

Purity culture is bad because it demonizes sex as a whole--not because it encourages sexual intimacy to stay within the bounds of marriage.
Purity culture not only damages healthy attitudes towards sex and intimacy, it teaches that one's ultimate value to a future partner is whether or not their genitals have made contact with another's genitals rather than vastly more important factors that determine compatibility and longevity in a committed relationship. Also, purity culture seems to be more concerned with female "purity" than male "purity".

I don't know if you've taken a look at our society lately, but ever since the 'pAtRiArChY' crumbled, here are just a few little, itsy bitsy problems that have(coincidentally? I think not)sprouted up;
When did the patriarchy crumble? Do you have a date? Because it is not possible to compare a before and after without a date. Now, I will say that traditional patriarchy is sliding into the background but it has been a long and hard-fought battle to get to this point.

- Oversexualization of both men and women
Sex sells but I fail to see a connection to a "crumbled patriarchy". Look to to a desire to increase profits for your culprit on this one.

- 50% divorce rate
This alone does not tell a story. Relationships are complex. Also it does not describe how many unhappy couples lived out their lives in marriages in the past due to the fact that divorce was not an option (either legally or due to social pressure). If patriarchy was responsible for people staying in miserable marriages, then it is evidence that patriarchy has failed and needs to crumble.

- Women dying their hair obnoxiously bright colors and walking around with unshaved armpits while screaming at people
While you may find this unappealing, expressing oneself via hair color is just that, an expression. Women choosing not to shave their armpits is their choice. Screaming at people? Context for this needed. Anyway, what does any of this have to do with "crumbling patriarchy"?

- The woman owner of YouTube ruining the platform and making it a cesspool of left-wing, bubblewrapped 'family-friendly' nonsense
Is "family friendly" a bad thing now? And what does this have to do with a "crumbling patriarchy"?

- Lots and lots more people claiming to be lonely and depressed despite sexual promiscuity and 'independence' becoming more acceptable
Why are you linking sex to happiness? Depression is complex. Loneliness is due to a myriad of possible reasons. A major factor of both of these in the internet age is a lack of in person human contact and relationships.

- WOMEN ALMOST BEING DRAFTED BY DEFAULT LIKE MEN EVEN THOUGH IT'S A LOUD MINORITY ASKING FOR IT
Women should be registered for the draft at 18 if we are going to continue to require it if men. Wars are different today then they were in the prior century. Our modern military welcomes women in many crucial roles, and if ever the draft was used in the future, then it stands to reason women would be just as necessary and qualified as men to fill all the needed roles.

If anything, a little misogyny is needed to help balance out this insanity -_-
Misogeny is defined as mistrust and/or hatred of women. No, this is absolutely NOT needed!

And just to note, NO woman should be allowed in military combat anyways. Women are physically less capable than men in almost every way, and as much as I'm for equal rights anywhere else--a woman on the battlefield will be nothing but dead weight and should be a last resort.
If a woman desires this and meets the necessary qualifications, then what valid reason remains to exclude her?
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I don't follow.
I ask why you don't complain about boys not keeping their virginity, and you tell me it's because you think it's disgusting when they don't remain virgins? But isn't that the exact same reason why you are complaining about the girls?

I explained why--because men are NATURALLY held to a higher standard, or at least traditionally they have been. Same with how men are naturally seen as 'sleezy' or 'afraid of commitment' and all that if they sleep around.

Just out of curiosity, are you a man or a woman? Because I enjoy sex from a physical side of things. I'm pretty much incapable of having any more children, but I still love sex. And I've had sexy time with long term partners, and also people who I've liked but didn't plan on a long term relationship with.

I'm a woman. I love the idea of sex, but I'm not going to just give it to people because I value sex as something sacred.

And what does a future spouse gain if you are a virgin when you marry them? What is gained by saving yourself for them?

If you don't value yourself or the intimacy that comes with sexual intercourse, there's no way I can explain what is gained.

Tell ya what, you give me a list of movies where a man treats a woman as something more than an item to be desired, and I'll give you a list twice as long where the woman is a reward for the hero once he's saved the day, okay?

What's wrong with being rewarded with love? What, are the men at the end of the movie going "come over here [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], you're mine now"? You must live in a pretty awful world.

And as for the double standards, show me women publicly making comments about how guys should be ashamed for not being physically perfect. Because some of the stuff (read: a lot of the stuff) that women get is telling us that we should kill ourselves for the slightest imperfection, or that we should be raped for not being a breathing sex toy.

Women are harassed much, much more by other women, or by mixed groups, than by men alone when it comes to being told to 'kill yourself'. And you're painting with a pretty wide brush assuming that that many men think you should be raped if you're not just some sex toy. I'll tell you what though--maybe if you other ladies set higher standards when it came to men, you wouldn't end up getting burned so badly. Most men are not as you describe, period.

Yes, you do seem like someone who finds a woman in a position of power threatening.

I don't find it threatening. I used to have no problem with women in power...until I started seeing women in power IN ACTION. Sure, not all women are like that--but the ones that get the attention from media are God-awful. All they do is puff up their chest, complain and PANDER to people. Not saying men don't do that too, but it seems to be a lot more common in general with women.

Why do you think there is any connection at all?

If you don't see a connection, take a moment to consider that you are possibly part of the group causing the problem.

Yeah, because only a big tough strong man can aim a gun and pull a trigger!

You're right. A lot of women don't even have the physical strength to handle the recoil of powerful guns. If you want to argue about the biological advantages men have over women, take it up with a biologist. Just because women want 'equality' doesn't mean that we should be putting our troops at a disadvantage because some feminist cried 'patriarchy!'. Did you even consider what the effects of war could have on a woman's psyche? Statistically, women are far more susceptible to cracking under stress and becoming depressed in the same higher positions as men--how do you think a woman is going to deal with the PTSD if MEN even have a hard time with it?

You really need to figure out why you don't like women having power, and sort that out.

I don't like the MAINSTREAM women in power. Some women do fine, but by default, I am skeptical of women being in power. You, for example, I'd never trust in a position of power.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Inspecting a woman's hymen to prove her virginity is wrong period! It also is not a reliable indicator of prior intercourse and speaks nothing of alternative sexual acts. Requiring this is not an act of "protecting a daughter's virginity" it is an act of abusive control.

It's 'abusive' because you don't like it. I use the word 'obsessive' instead of 'abusive' because the father, even if it's not in the correct or preferred manner, is just trying to protect his daughter. I don't recommend doing it for the reason that putting your children on such a tight leash(so to speak)often makes them MORE rebellious, but at the same time I'm not going to call someone abusive if he has it checked.

A woman doesn't "give away" her virginity. It is not an object. Sex is an experience and when one chooses to experience sex they are not giving a "thing" to anyone. Regardless of how you may judge others on when they choose to have sex for the first time, it is their choice to make.

Your first time having sex will never happen again. Sex in and of itself is the highest form of physical intimacy you can experience with anyone. I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I have every right to have opinions based on what I see. And what I see is that with the rise of sexual promiscuity, comes a fall in maturity and LACK OF COMMITMENT. If you wanna sleep around, nobody's stopping you.

Purity culture not only damages healthy attitudes towards sex and intimacy, it teaches that one's ultimate value to a future partner is whether or not their genitals have made contact with another's genitals rather than vastly more important factors that determine compatibility and longevity in a committed relationship. Also, purity culture seems to be more concerned with female "purity" than male "purity".

If all sex is to you is 'genitals touching genitals', then I'm not really sure what to tell you. Anyways, like I said purity culture is bad because it demonizes sex. It's good to understand that sex(within appropriate circumstances)and sexual feelings are natural and nothing to be ashamed of, and young adults shouldn't be shamed because of it. Also, I already pointed out that men should/have been held to a higher standard by default. It used to be that if a man slept with a woman, he had to marry her. That's how society used to be.

When did the patriarchy crumble? Do you have a date? Because it is not possible to compare a before and after without a date. Now, I will say that traditional patriarchy is sliding into the background but it has been a long and hard-fought battle to get to this point.

It's been crumbling for a while, and I don't have the time to explain all of the reasons why that is probably a bad thing. Sorry.

Sex sells but I fail to see a connection to a "crumbled patriarchy". Look to to a desire to increase profits for your culprit on this one.

When a society begins accepting anything and everything, it usually falls to ruin shortly after. Most societies have thrived under semi to full patriarchal rule(with the exception of a few well-rounded woman leaders...who were ironically born and raised in a patriarchal society more than likely). Socially accepted sexual promiscuity is a big red flag because it's one huge slippery slope AND it destroys the family unit.

This alone does not tell a story. Relationships are complex. Also it does not describe how many unhappy couples lived out their lives in marriages in the past due to the fact that divorce was not an option (either legally or due to social pressure). If patriarchy was responsible for people staying in miserable marriages, then it is evidence that patriarchy has failed and needs to crumble.

Patriarchal society held men and women to higher standards, and as a result, made them mature more quickly. Mature people have better relationships because they don't just leave whenever things get 'too hard'. Marriage is a lifetime commitment--does 'till death to us part' mean nothing? And no doubt some aspects of patriarchy did not work out perfectly; I understand fully well the problem of unhappy marriages and all the like, but to be fair, there were a lot more problems contributing to that such as pressure to marry right away, expectations from family, pressure into marrying certain people, etc.

While you may find this unappealing, expressing oneself via hair color is just that, an expression. Women choosing not to shave their armpits is their choice. Screaming at people? Context for this needed. Anyway, what does any of this have to do with "crumbling patriarchy"?

The hair color comment was partially a joke, since feminists stereotypically have oddly dyed hair. Shaving their armpits is indeed a choice--but not if they're going to wear short sleeved/sleeveless shirt. At that point, it's more about social awareness and good manners...not that I expect the average person to have either of those these days. Screaming at people? Look up feminist protests, or videos of women yelling at trump supporters sometime LOL.

Is "family friendly" a bad thing now? And what does this have to do with a "crumbling patriarchy"

'Family friendly' is a problem on a site that grew based on being a platform where ANYONE can express their views. Even more so when you make a living off of it and can't even use words like 'death' or 'minor' without risking demonetization. I also really don't want to have to keep explaining how patriarchal societies influence our views and behaviors and how the 'crumbling' is a bad thing, thanks.

Why are you linking sex to happiness? Depression is complex. Loneliness is due to a myriad of possible reasons. A major factor of both of these in the internet age is a lack of in person human contact and relationships.

I never linked sex to happiness in that way. I just pointed out that for ages people wanted sexual freedom and to experiment with relationships. And guess what? We ended up with a 50% divorce rate and people that are always complaining about either failing in relationships or not finding one at all.

Women should be registered for the draft at 18 if we are going to continue to require it if men. Wars are different today then they were in the prior century. Our modern military welcomes women in many crucial roles, and if ever the draft was used in the future, then it stands to reason women would be just as necessary and qualified as men to fill all the needed roles.

That is absolutely stupid, I'm sorry. Who do you think are going to stay back and take care of the children and upkeep everything should the men all be called to war? The elderly?? And I already told you that men are required because they are biologically superior to women in terms of physicality. PLUS it has been the man's job since the beginning of civilization to protect their families and women--and people like you want to turn that on it's head for the sake of 'equality' without even considering the consequences or preparing proper alternatives.

Misogeny is defined as mistrust and/or hatred of women. No, this is absolutely NOT needed!

It was sarcasm.

If a woman desires this and meets the necessary qualifications, then what valid reason remains to exclude her?

If a woman wants to be in the military and she qualifies, that's great--as long as it's not physical combat. You do realize that medics, engineers and pilots exist in the military, right? There are plenty of other jobs for them. But women will NEVER be first choice for physical, ground combat for obvious biological reasons.
 
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