Is the sabbath still a moral law?

JohnClay

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@eleos1954 wrote:
Hell
......Discerning between good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard: and that standard is the perfect nature of God. God is not subject to morality ... He is the source and benchmark for it. Nor is morality subject to change, since God’s perfect nature is eternal and unchanging.....

In Numbers 15:32-36 God commanded the people to kill the man who was found gathering sticks on the sabbath.
Hell
....In the verse you brought forth yes He commanded that man to be killed. His moral laws (10 commandments) do not change. There are also instances where people violated the sabbath and were not killed. As stated before sometimes He shows mercy ... sometimes not ... and it's none of our business....
I replied:
These days many people and animals work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) - it seems to me the moral law regarding the sabbath is ignored.

Is it true that God's morality never changes? If so, why is it that people who work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) aren't seen as being immoral?
 

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Does God require Sabbath-keeping of Christians? In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 states, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” These Scriptures make it clear that, for the Christian, Sabbath-keeping is a matter of spiritual freedom, not a command from God. Sabbath-keeping is an issue on which God’s Word instructs us not to judge each other. Sabbath-keeping is a matter about which each Christian needs to be fully convinced in his/her own mind.
 
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Sketcher

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Is it true that God's morality never changes?
Yes.

If so, why is it that people who work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) aren't seen as being immoral?
First of all, the Sabbath command was given to Jews, but not to Gentiles living outside of their land. God judged Israel and the other nations in the Old Testament for many things, but only Israel was judged for not keeping Sabbath. Hence, God required Jews to keep Sabbath, but not Gentiles.

Second, there was no command in the New Testament to keep Sabbath. Rather, we have the opposite:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16

If Sabbath were required of Christians, passing judgment on someone for failing to keep Sabbath would have been kept and reinforced, like the command against incest was in 1 Corinthians 5. Sometimes you've got to judge sin, after all.

Now, this isn't to say that Christians who are of Jewish heritage shouldn't keep the Sabbath - but they should keep it in the light of the Gospel, upholding the Law by faith (Romans 3:31) but not in a legalistic, burdensome way that denies what God did through Christ, and what Christ did for us. Gentiles like me though, are off the hook by OT and NT standards.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Is it true that God's morality never changes? If so, why is it that people who work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) aren't seen as being immoral?
Did you notice that many people today throughout society and in (and leading ) church are immoral ? And that they do not want to change ?
 
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JohnClay

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.....First of all, the Sabbath command was given to Jews, but not to Gentiles living outside of their land. God judged Israel and the other nations in the Old Testament for many things, but only Israel was judged for not keeping Sabbath. Hence, God required Jews to keep Sabbath, but not Gentiles.
Exodus 20:10
"but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns"

Second, there was no command in the New Testament to keep Sabbath.
Matthew 5:18
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Rather, we have the opposite:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16
I think that was the case to encourage non-Jewish Christians. I think some groups of Christians disagreed with that though Paul's version won - perhaps partly because of the letters he wrote and I think James (the brother of Jesus) was illiterate.

My point is eleos1954 is saying:

"Discerning between good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard..... His moral laws (10 commandments) do not change"

Anyway would you say that the 10 commandments are "moral" laws, like eleos1954? Or are they ceremonial or something?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So if you break commandments like the one against stealing or murder it isn't concerned with morality?
Does it matter ? (if it is concerned by someone , about morality?) What difference does it make if it is about morality or not ? The penalty /cost of sin is death.
WHO is the one, the origin, who started calling it either moral or ceremonial ?
If Yahuweh Says it, it is so.
WHAT does Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Say about TORAH ? About the ten words ? (commandments)
 
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JohnClay

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Does it matter ? (if it is concerned by someone , about morality?) What difference does it make if it is about morality or not ?...
Some Christians say that morality should be absolute i.e. be from God - since people often can't agree when talking about subjective morality.

The penalty /cost of sin is death.
WHO is the one, the origin, who started calling it either moral or ceremonial ?
If Yahuweh Says it, it is so.
WHAT does Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Say about TORAH ? About the ten words ? (commandments)
So is it a sin to work on the sabbath?
 
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Soyeong

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@eleos1954 wrote:
Hell


In Numbers 15:32-36 God commanded the people to kill the man who was found gathering sticks on the sabbath.
Hell

I replied:
These days many people and animals work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) - it seems to me the moral law regarding the sabbath is ignored.

Is it true that God's morality never changes? If so, why is it that people who work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) aren't seen as being immoral?

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, and all of them are eternal (Psalms 119:160). If a Christian ignores a moral law, then that just means that they are acting immorally, not that God's morality has changed.

Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, to it would be unjust to enforce a penalty that has already been paid. Still, the fact that God considers breaking the Sabbath to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make us want to go and sin no more in obedience to God's Law.
 
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JohnClay

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....Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, to it would be unjust to enforce a penalty that has already been paid.
Exodus 22:1 "Whoever steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it must pay back five head of cattle for the ox and four sheep for the sheep"
So are you saying that thieves shouldn't receive a penalty like that?

Still, the fact that God considers breaking the Sabbath to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make us want to go and sin no more in obedience to God's Law.
If you had a job that involved you working for some time between sundown Friday and sundown Saturday would you refuse to work?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Some Christians say that morality should be absolute i.e. be from God - since people often can't agree when talking about subjective morality.
So what is morality they , men, talk about ? Is it something actually true, or manmade emotions/ feelings ?

Compare , if you will or can, morality (as men think), with righteousness - Yahuweh's righteous requirements for men. Yahuweh's Rules / Instructions for life/ for purity/ for a clear conscience.

Yahuweh tells HIS children - you must be set apart from the world, distinctly unworldly, holy.
Yahushua confirms - telling the disciples - you must be perfect (this does not fit the English definition of perfect, but it is translated perfect, btw) .... Consider: how people call a football player 'perfect', or a baby, or a child, at different times - "oh! they are so perfect!" ....

There's no one word that properly translates what Jesus meant... but it is still truth what Jesus said, just not generally understood - and often rejected by Christians thinking no one can be perfect ..... yet Jesus commands it - "you must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" as the Father told the Israelites "you must be holy, because I AM HOLY " , is truth. Yes, even today, it is true. Difficult words? No, not really, but a lot of disciples walked away when they thought Jesus' words were too hard to accept. They walked away without getting an explanation. Only the disciples who stayed with Jesus were told what He meant. (even the apostles did not understand, UNTIL Jesus explained/ the Father Revealed/ opened their minds / granted them understanding) , but they still REMAINED WITH JESUS....)
=======================
 
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eleos1954

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@eleos1954 wrote:
Hell


In Numbers 15:32-36 God commanded the people to kill the man who was found gathering sticks on the sabbath.
Hell

I replied:
These days many people and animals work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) - it seems to me the moral law regarding the sabbath is ignored.

Is it true that God's morality never changes? If so, why is it that people who work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) aren't seen as being immoral?

***

The morality of God (what is considered right or wrong) is set by Him. He created mankind in His image. His image is partly characterized by His law (10 commandments). Does God (Jesus) break His own laws? No ... Jesus kept the law perfectly, including the sabbath.

Jesus taught from the old testament

Now there are some christians who believe His law (10 commandments) were done away with, no longer to be kept. So ... there are some that don't believe keeping the sabbath is a moral (right or wrong) issue. Call those who do legalists etc.
Keeping any of Gods laws are to be out of love for Him and for no other reasons. No one can earn their way to heaven.

Jesus (who is God) said ...

Matthew 5:18

New International Version
For truly I tell you, until (earths) heaven and earth disappear (until Jesus returns), not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

so, as Jesus says everything isn't accomplished until heaven and earth disappear and that is when Jesus comes back ... and the law (the ten) are still in place until that time.

What Law? We know it's not the mosaic law (ceremonial/sacrificial laws) ... as those were in fact done away with ... ceased.

This topic gets debated all the time ... so will agree to disagree regarding the matter of the 7th day sabbath. I am aware of all the opposite views on the matter ... let everyone be convinced in their own mind on the matter.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The morality of God (what is considered right or wrong) is set by Him.

How about "the righteousness of Yahuweh is Perfect in Every Way, with no iniquity" ....

I don't know where or when "morality"(apparently man's/society's term)
started being something as if of God's nature.
 
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Sketcher

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Exodus 20:10
"but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns"
Right, which is covered by what I said originally - that's limited to Israelite lands.

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Which is what Jesus said to Jews, who were under the Law. Gentiles living outside of Judea would therefore keep their aforementioned exemptions under this.

Rather, we have the opposite:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16
I think that was the case to encourage non-Jewish Christians. I think some groups of Christians disagreed with that though Paul's version won - perhaps partly because of the letters he wrote and I think James (the brother of Jesus) was illiterate.
Paul, Peter, and James were all on the same track (Acts 15).

My point is eleos1954 is saying:

"Discerning between good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard..... His moral laws (10 commandments) do not change"

Anyway would you say that the 10 commandments are "moral" laws, like eleos1954? Or are they ceremonial or something?

I'm with Martin Luther instead. When Martin Luther and Jewish teachers both say the same thing about the Law, I pay attention:

Moses was an intermediary solely for the Jewish people. It was to them that he gave the law. We must therefore silence the mouths of those factious spirits who say, “Thus says Moses,” etc. Here you simply reply: Moses has nothing to do with us. If I were to accept Moses in one commandment, I would have to accept the entire Moses. Thus the consequence would be that if I accept Moses as master, then I must have myself circumcised, 2) wash my clothes in the Jewish way, eat and drink and dress thus and so, and observe all that stuff. So, then, we will neither observe nor accept Moses. Moses is dead. His rule ended when Christ came. He is of no further service.

That Moses does not bind the Gentiles can be proved from Exodus 20:1, where God himself speaks, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” This text makes it clear that even the Ten Commandments do not pertain to us. For God never led us out of Egypt, but only the Jews. The sectarian spirits want to saddle us with Moses and all the commandments. We will just skip that. We will regard Moses as a teacher, but we will not regard him as our lawgiver – unless he agrees with both the New Testament and the natural law. Therefore it is clear enough that Moses is the lawgiver of the Jews and not of the Gentiles. He has given the Jews a sign whereby they should lay hold of God, when they call upon him as the God who brought them out of Egypt. The Christians have a different sign, whereby they conceive of God as the One who gave his Son, etc.

From: How Christians Should Regard Moses | Word of His Grace
 
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What happens when Jews, righteous ones, go to another country ?
Jews would need to keep it as best they can, since they're still Jews. But Gentiles who are not in Israel are not "residing in [Jewish] towns."
 
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Soyeong

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Exodus 22:1 "Whoever steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it must pay back five head of cattle for the ox and four sheep for the sheep"
So are you saying that thieves shouldn't receive a penalty like that?

Sins can be against God and against our neighbor, so while we can be made right with God through what Jesus has done on the cross, we still need to be reconciled our neighbor.

If you had a job that involved you working for some time between sundown Friday and sundown Saturday would you refuse to work?

That can be a hard decision to make, but I believe that God will bless us if we are faithful to make room for Him on the Sabbath.
 
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Soyeong

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Does God require Sabbath-keeping of Christians? In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 states, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” These Scriptures make it clear that, for the Christian, Sabbath-keeping is a matter of spiritual freedom, not a command from God. Sabbath-keeping is an issue on which God’s Word instructs us not to judge each other. Sabbath-keeping is a matter about which each Christian needs to be fully convinced in his/her own mind.

Paul did not have the authority to countermand God, nor did he try to do so, nor should you follow him instead of God even if your interpretation of those verses were correct.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging them as teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so they were being judged by pagans. This means that the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

The topic of Romans 14 stated in the first verses is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as Paul teaching rebellion against God. There is a big difference between a day that a man esteems as a matter of opinion and a day that someone follows because God commanded it. For example, God gave no command to fast twice a week, but in the 1st century that had become a common practice (Luke 18:12).

In Romans 14:5-6, it speaks about those who eat or refrain from eating until the Lord, so it is speaking about those who esteem certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion and has nothing to do with whether followers of God should follow His command to keep the Sabbath holy in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. The Sabbath is not even mentioned once in Romans 14. Paul was not suggesting that we are free to commit murder, theft, adultery, idolatry, breaking the Sabbath, or disobey any of God's other commands as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok, but rather that was said only in regard to issues that are disputable matters of opinion.
 
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Soyeong

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Yes.


First of all, the Sabbath command was given to Jews, but not to Gentiles living outside of their land. God judged Israel and the other nations in the Old Testament for many things, but only Israel was judged for not keeping Sabbath. Hence, God required Jews to keep Sabbath, but not Gentiles.

The theme has always been to the Jew first and then to the Gentles. The Law given to Jews was given to them in order to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching them to repent of their sins and how to walk in God's ways (Isaiah 2:2-3). The Sabbath was given to teach us about who God is and what He has done, so there is no sense in someone from the nations seeing the God of Israel put on display and wanting to become His follower, but not wanting to follow the instructions that He gave to teach us about who He is. For Gentiles it is about seeing the program of God and buying into it.

Second, there was no command in the New Testament to keep Sabbath. Rather, we have the opposite:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16

If Sabbath were required of Christians, passing judgment on someone for failing to keep Sabbath would have been kept and reinforced, like the command against incest was in 1 Corinthians 5. Sometimes you've got to judge sin, after all.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging them as teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so they were being judged by pagans. This means that the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

Now, this isn't to say that Christians who are of Jewish heritage shouldn't keep the Sabbath - but they should keep it in the light of the Gospel, upholding the Law by faith (Romans 3:31) but not in a legalistic, burdensome way that denies what God did through Christ, and what Christ did for us. Gentiles like me though, are off the hook by OT and NT standards.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, including repenting from breaking the Sabbath. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's Law has always been about trusting Him to guide us in how to rightly live.

If God gave you an option about whether or not you wanted to follow a law and you knew nothing about what it would be other than that God said that it would be for your own good, then would you trust God to give it to you, or would you want to be off the hook?
 
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