Who is THE RESTRAINER

Douggg

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The sequence of events 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8:
  1. The restrainer is removed
  2. Man of sin is revealed
  3. The great apostasy takes place
  4. Then the saints are gathered to Christ (i.e. the rapture)
This much we agree with, correct? If that is the case, then we agree that there cannot be a pre-trib rapture.
The restrainer is the head of the Church - the restrainer is Jesus. Jesus is in heaven. The church is the body of Christ, here on earth. It is the body of Christ, the church that will be removed from the earth- via the rapture, before the Antichrist is revealed as the man-of-sin.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Abraxos said:
While I agree with your initial views on a seemingly Pre-Wrath Rapture, and that the "man of sin" is a man yet to be revealed, I can't say I agree with your views on who or what The Restrainer is.
You made a WRONG TURN on Park Ave. Now you are on Butter & Egg Drive.
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^_^ A new spin on Monopoly..........nice
I like my eggs over easy please..........
 
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Revealing Times

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Can you provide the verses for me on where it states that the Holy Spirit will revert back to the situation it was in before the Church multiplied?
Bama stated at 2:30 and I have had a 3 to 4 hour break once a week for 55 years, LOL.

Its just common sense brother, if the Church via the Holy Spirit is what RESTRAINS the Beast and the Church departs, then by reason of logical logistics the Church wouldn't any longer be on earth to restrain the Beast from coming forth. The answer is in the details.

This isn't that much of a compelling argument because there are no scriptures that imply this, even just a little bit. How can the Holy Spirit (an omnipresent being) be "taken out of the way" and yet still be present on earth?
Sure there is, Paul spoke of the CATCHING AWAY {English} by using the Greek word Harpazo, which the Latin Vulgate interpreted as Rapio {Rapture}. So the Harpazo is the Rapture id the CATCHING AWAY BY FORCE !!

@Douggg & @Revealing Times
It seems that you both agree (correct me if I'm wrong) on that once the restrainer is removed (the departure of the church) this triggers the great apostasy.
No, the Church can't be in an Apostasia mode of its in Heaven !! The prob;em is the Departing of the Church has been misconstrued to be the Departing from the FAITH, when its not that at all, thus it means NOT the Departing from the Faith, but the Church departing from the earth.

In the last days there will be a worldwide move where people get more evil, where people accept homosexuality and abortion etc. etc. But that is not the Church departing from their moorings per se. Their will be BAD DOCTRINE in these end times also, but those who have doctrines of devils are not really a part of the Church are they ?

t may well be true, that the church being raptured before the great tribulation would cast a heavy sense of despair on the minds of Christians left behind; and with the prosperity of deceit and delusion (the iniquity of lawlessness) gone rampant in the world with the Antichrist at its lead, the result will be a great falling away from the Christian faith.
You see, I think it means the world gets coarser and more evil in general, not the Church, those who tarried {5 foolish virgins} can't make the wedding, but they can attain Heaven, but they more than likely will have to lay down their lives unless they can find a super duper hiding place for 42 months. So those Gentiles who become Christians after the Rapture will be the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal. So those Christians can't {"FALL AWAY} they know they must refuse the Mark of the Beast even at the cost of death, else they are hopeless !! It doesn't mean Apostasy, it means the Rapture.
This I very much agree with, but, unfortunately, there are contradictions to the text that bring a pre-trib view to appear as overemphasising a point that is simply not there in the text.
Its there, its just a letter to a Church, so we miss out on the back and forth meaning or the gist of what they were speaking about. Its evident the Gathering unto Christ is SUBJECT.

There is, however, another cause for the 'falling away', and that is due to one man many Christians often overlook -- Elijah (Mal 4:6, Rev 6:2, Lk 1:7, Is 49:1-7 Is 55:5, Zech 3, Zech 4:6-10, etc). And I will say that this end-time Elijah archetype is profoundly linked to The Restrainer if not are one of the same.

Elijah comes to turn Israel back unto God, nit the Gentiles.
 
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Revealing Times

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1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
I don't think Paul would say "our gathering together to Him (rapture)" can't come until the "Apostasy ( rapture ?) comes first , makes no sense.
The Departure comes first , then the rapture
Its not Apostisia from the FAITH its APOSTISIA from the EARTH !!

He is saying that the DEPARTURE from the earth must come BEFORE the Day pf the Lord falls on men or the 6th Seal of Gods Wrath. which is the Day of the Lord. They were fearing that they were in the DAY OF CHRIST {Day of the Lord}. Paul tells them not to fear being in the DOTL, he says THAT DAY can not come until the Church first DEPARTS [the earth] AND the Anti-Christ is REVEALED.

AC = the first four Seals.........Day of the Lord starts at the 6th Seal. The Church departs 3.5 years before this day even begins.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Douggg said:
Hi Tra, welcome to the forum.

The title of your thread asks who is the restrainer?

The restrainer is the body of Christ, the church, in which the Holy Spirit works. In verse 6, it is actually "what" with-holdeth, not who. But let us not argue over that point. The what is that as long as the rapture has not happened, 2Thessalonians2:4 will not happen.


The son of perdition will be a man, who's action in 2Thessalonians2:4 triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord, during which time the wrath of God will be poured out on the earth.

In 1Thessalonians5, concerning the beginning of the Day of the Lord as like a thief coming in the night, in verses 9-11, which are rapture verses, indicates that the church will be taken out of the way before the Antichrist commits his act.
Abraxos said:
Problem #1 / Contradictions
One problem with this view that has the Holy Spirit-filled church as the Restrainer is that it seems to have the order of events reversed. According to 2 Thess 2:1, we are gathered to Christ after the Antichrist is revealed. So how can the Holy Spirit within the church hold back the "man of sin" entering the world if the "man of sin" is already in the world? It seems there is a scriptural problem for Christians that hold this view.
Revealing Times said:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away{DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH} first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Ed Parenteau said:
We can see from the following that the departure is not from the earth, but from the faith.
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Revealing Times said:
And "GAY" used to mean happy, you using an English dictionary to try to understand a Greek word from 2000 years ago is not the proper wordsmith technique tbh. I have an old blog on this very subject that I delved into 4 or 5 years ago. Its quite clear the subject is the "GATHERING" unto Christ as per the Departure and not a REVOLT from the Faith, because FAITH is spoken of in ZERO PLACES in the passage, but the gathering unto Christ is spoken of in the very first verse.
Berean Tim said:
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
I don't think Paul would say "our gathering together to Him (rapture)" can't come until the "Apostasy ( rapture ?) comes first , makes no sense.
The Departure comes first , then the rapture
Its not Apostisia from the FAITH its APOSTISIA from the EARTH !!
Would make for a good discussion thread:

What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?
LLoJ Sep 3, 2008


Strong's Number G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2 Thessalonians 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first. And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.

Acts 21:21 "They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs/eqesin <1485> to be about walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]
 
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Revealing Times

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Just so we're clear, just because those translations say "departure" doesn't mean that the translators understood this to refer to anything other than a departure from the faith.
That was the whole point I was making brother, there was a definite article used and since the Greek doesn't need a definite article that means something was being POINTED TOWARDS as Departing, and since FAITH is nowhere to be found in the passage at all, why would you think its pointing to departing from the Faith ? But we do see Paul in the very first verse speaking about the Gathering unto Christ Jesus, so thee Rapture is being POINTED UNTO via the definite article in that passage.

If you want to argue that the view, the understanding which was held, was that this "departure" isn't a departure from the faith but something else then you are beholden to provide evidence for that claim. You have not done so.
I just did, and you can find NOWHERE in that passage the FAITH being spoken of, but I can show the Rapture was spoken of. Just because MEN ASSUMED something doesn't mean it holds water brother. So I can point to facts being in my favor, you guys can not point to FAITH anywhere in the passage.

If you want to argue that St. Jerome chose discessio in his Latin translation because Jerome (and others at the time) believed this referred to a departure of Christians from the earth, then you need to present that argument by pointing to actual statements to that effect. Do you have evidence of Jerome believing this? Do you have evidence of any from this time period believing this? Do you have evidence of anyone before believing this? Do you have evidence of anyone afterward believing this?

You need to present the facts about the DEPARTURE being from the FAITH. The Gathering together is being pointed towards, nowhere is Faith pointed towards in the whole passage.

The 1545 Lutherbibel has "Lasset euch niemand verführen in keinerlei Weise! Denn er kommt nicht, es sei denn, daß zuvor der Abfall komme, und offenbaret werde der Mensch der Sünde und das Kind des Verderbens," (literally "the rubbish" or "the garbage", possibly from the sense of trash being swept away).
You are swimming upstream brother.......what is being spoken of ? The gathering unto Christ.
 
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jgr

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That was the whole point I was making brother, there was a definite article used and since the Greek doesn't need a definite article that means something was being POINTED TOWARDS as Departing, and since FAITH is nowhere to be found in the passage at all, why would you think its pointing to departing from the Faith ? But we do see Paul in the very first verse speaking about the Gathering unto Christ Jesus, so thee Rapture is being POINTED UNTO via the definite article in that passage.


I just did, and you can find NOWHERE in that passage the FAITH being spoken of, but I can show the Rapture was spoken of. Just because MEN ASSUMED something doesn't mean it holds water brother. So I can point to facts being in my favor, you guys can not point to FAITH anywhere in the passage.



You need to present the facts about the DEPARTURE being from the FAITH. The Gathering together is being pointed towards, nowhere is Faith pointed towards in the whole passage.


You are swimming upstream brother.......what is being spoken of ? The gathering unto Christ.

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to suggest it.

It is a modernist dispensational figment.


 
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Woke

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In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?
Many Christians believe, as you can tell from these comments, that the end of the Man of Lawlessness must come soon after he is revealed. But the scripture does not say that. The word used to describe his end is "then," which denotes a sequence in time and not a time length.

When the scripture claims the Man of Lawlessness will be revealed, Paul meant revealed to Christ's true followers. All New Testament scriptures were written to Christ's true followers, so the revealing would be to them. They would recognize it.

Paul gives enough information to identify him here:

"3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it [the end] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work"

First notice that in vs6 Paul claims they knew what was restraining him, and that his lawlessness was already at work. So this could not be a single man as many Christians claim. Because no single man lives from the day of the apostles until Christ comes. Second, note Paul's scripture (vs4) does not say he sits himself down in the temple of a false god. It says he sits down in the temple of God. So he sits down inside the Christian congregation, since the congregation (it's individual members) is described as God's temple. The Man of Lawlessness' appearance is associated this with a rebellion. Where would this be? Obviously inside the church he sits down in. He (those that are part of this group)) raises himself above every so called god, and object of worship, thus demanding Christians follow him (them), making himself (by their teachings) a god to those who follow him. As Christ said, "worship your god and serve him only."

The type of lawlessness Paul spoke of was existent when he wrote this. However, it might not have been recognized by the average Christian, because something was retraining its obvious appearance. vs 7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed"

That should be enough to figure everything about it out. Paul was writing about apostasy inside the Christian congregation that would grow until it could be clearly seen by Christ's true followers. It would grow so large that it (the apostasy) would seat itself in a controlling position over many Christians. Paul was one of the chief Christians that restrained it from getting that kind of firm grip over the congregation while he lived. Thus he said in vs6 "And you know what is now restraining him." Where Paul established congregations the members in those congregations knew Paul stopped false teachings from spreading inside them. The other apostles also served to retrain the apostasy. After the apostles died there was no single person, or single group inside the Christian congregation to restrain the false teachings from strong elders who eventually asserted themselves into a clergy class inside congregations. And in some churches, even in whole denominations, Christians are only acceptable members if they follow beliefs, right or wrong, of their clergy. Thus the clergy has established itself as a god, inside and over some members, who are the temple of God.

Read Paul's letters. Also read Peter, James, Jude, and John's Revelation that speaks of Babylon the Great, "a city that is over all the kings of the earth." You might also look into the history of the church which confirms Paul's words. It's historical actions reveal its apostasy, even if your understanding of biblical doctrine needs improving, for everyone can understand the NT does not approve of much of its historical actions.

But their end will be when Christ comes. Read Matthew chapter 7.
 
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Dave L

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Dave, go to your bible, in Revelation read about the vials (some translations have bowls) of God's wrath. And about the wrath of the Lamb. And about Satan's wrath.

The church is not appointed to any of those.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
I don't think Paul would say "our gathering together to Him (rapture)" can't come until the "Apostasy ( rapture ?) comes first , makes no sense.
The Departure comes first , then the rapture
But Jesus and Paul place the rapture on the last day after the resurrection.
 
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Berean Tim

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But Jesus and Paul place the rapture on the last day after the resurrection.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Not sure where you get "the last day" from. But the "dead in Christ rise first" then the rapture
 
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Dave L

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16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Not sure where you get "the last day" from. But the "dead in Christ rise first" then the rapture
Here's how it works out;
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
 
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Berean Tim

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Here's how it works out;
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
Last day of what ?
There are two resurrections :
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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Dave L

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Last day of what ?
There are two resurrections :
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There are two resurrections on the last day. But what is tying you up is not including the New Birth as being the first resurrection completed on the last day. Paul was resurrected first spiritually on the road to Damascus. To be complete on earth's last day in the bodily resurrection.
 
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Berean Tim

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There are two resurrections on the last day. But what is tying you up is not including the New Birth as being the first resurrection completed on the last day. Paul was resurrected first spiritually on the road to Damascus. To be complete on earth's last day in the bodily resurrection.
What scripture ? The "New Birth" being the first resurrection ?
 
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Dave L

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What scripture ? The "New Birth" being the first resurrection ?


“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Ephesians 2:1 (KJV 1900)


“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” Colossians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Restrainer was most definitely the Emperors of Rome. Not just one singular but the office/position of Emperor. The power vaccum that was created when Rome fell as a political entity in 476 gave way for the Anti-Christ to fill the void, and the Anti-Christ is still "in power" to this day in Rome
 
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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)
Dave, go to the chapter the rapture verses are found in 1Thessalonians5.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The mental state of the world at the time will be...

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Dave, you are doing everything you can to sidestep the truth. You are going to get caught.
 
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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
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Were those fed to lions by Nero under wrath? How could it be any different in the tribulation to come? The entire NC era is tribulation for believers.
Dave, read the rapture verses in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 in context of the chapter. Beginning of the Day of the Lord is the time of wrath. The Day of the Lord does not begin until the two things happen first in 2Thessalonians2:3-4.
 
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