What Australians really think about religion

Paidiske said:

I think two very big things have driven this over the last five years or so; the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, and its findings and recommendations, and responses to them. And the process for changing the law to allow same-sex marriage and how all of that played out. Many, many people who, before that, would have identified as (to quote one friend of mine) not-quite-not-Christian have pulled back from Christianity in disgust at the way both of those things played out.

I think we've shot ourselves in the foot (feet?) for at least a generation, until there is the possibility of a different narrative and a new impression of faith communities.

I don't think that's quite the same thing as Christianity being irrelevant, but the kind of Christianity that seeks to express itself in terms of social control is simply not going to be tolerated any more.

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The tricky part of it is that Christianity expresses itself in those terms is because it is their absolute doctrine. Call me cynical about it, but if you pick/choose but ignore or don't want to talk about the teachings of social control, then what point does one have in identifying as Christian?

klutedavid said:

Australia is feral and a godless nation.

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The Australians are not bad people or country.

VCR-2000 said:

The tricky part of it is that Christianity expresses itself in those terms is because it is their absolute doctrine. Call me cynical about it, but if you pick/choose but ignore or don't want to talk about the teachings of social control, then what point does one have in identifying as Christian?

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I absolutely disagree that "social control" is any valid part of Christian teaching.

It's long been an ingrained part of Christian practice, but what I am arguing for here is that it's one we need to leave behind.

Paidiske said:

I absolutely disagree that "social control" is any valid part of Christian teaching.

It's long been an ingrained part of Christian practice, but what I am arguing for here is that it's one we need to leave behind.

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Look at the issues of inappropriate contentography, sex outside of defined marriage, contraception... how many more can I go on? This is fundamentally a part of the history of pretty much every Christian denomination Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist, so on through historical literature and preachings for the centuries if not millennia. I will argue that preaching against any of the above can turn into a form of social control even if they don't hold any government office.

VCR-2000 said:

Look at the issues of inappropriate contentography, sex outside of defined marriage, contraception... how many more can I go on? This is fundamentally a part of the history of pretty much every Christian denomination Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist, so on through historical literature and preachings for the centuries if not millennia. I will argue that preaching against any of the above can turn into a form of social control even if they don't hold any government office.

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I would say that preaching, on its own, is not "social control," although it does depend on the framework of beliefs/institutional structures around that teaching.

But this is my point. Yes, Christians have invested in social control. Many contemporary societies are rejecting that. I would argue that they are right to reject it, and that Christians need to recognise that social control was never something for which we had a gospel mandate, and willingly renounce it.

Occams Barber said:

There is an issue here about what we all actually mean by "social control".

I am not clear, for instance, on what the actual role of a church is in relation to it's members. It's hard to imagine a role which doesn't involve some expectation of 'Christian' behaviour (whatever that means) in relation to society as one of a number of ways of meeting God's requirements/expectations. If there is an expectation about how Christians should act then is this not "social control"?

NB I'm seeing 'social control' as non- pejorative as in encouraging people to 'do unto others...' as well as the usual fixation on sin.

OB

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But this is where it's interesting, I think. As someone who does preach and does lead a church, I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I think what I do is supposed to function; and I've come to the conclusion that what I do is *not* supposed to be telling others what to do, or setting up expectations for how they should behave.

I see my role as preacher as resourcing the thinking and reflection of others; I have the time, and the resources and the training, to look each week at a piece of Scriptural text and offer my congregations a reflection on that text, its original context, its range of potential meanings, and possible connections with our lives today.

But people are free to take on board some, all, or none of what I say. They're free to disagree completely, and tell me so (and some do!), and still to come back and be completely a part of the church and in good standing. They're not required to agree with what I say, much less to conform to any suggestions I make; but are free to make their own carefully considered response in the light of their own faith (or lack thereof).

And that is proper and healthy.

There are some boundaries - notably to do with areas that also run afoul of secular law, but also a code of conduct that applies to those in leadership roles - that apply. So I guess to the extent that we say that we expect our leaders to pay their taxes on time, not break the law, and generally conduct themselves ethically, that's a sort of social control (although note that even that sort of expectation is the result of a fairly democratic and participatory process).

But in general, certainly in my denomination, church members are free to act as they will; and generally - unless someone's behaviour is damaging to the community - I try to keep my opinion to myself unless asked for it.

But when I talk about the church renouncing ambitions to social control, I don't really mean not having any expectations of their own members; as long as people are free to join and free to leave, and the group is not abusive or manipulative or the like, I think particular faith groups having whatever expectations of the group members is not, in itself, a problem. I am talking more about the idea that a Christian vision or agenda should dictate social or legislative norms more broadly, outside the Church.

I'll stick my neck out here. I've quoted my old Presbyterian pastor a number of times, but this time his comment is a bit more severe.

He said to me once "I think God is sick and tired of condemning Australians.... I think He might give us a revival at some stage." That was his opinion, and I found from experience he was usually correct, and prophetic when he made future comments.

He also thought that if revival did come, it would be through the Catholic Church. In his opinion, the Protestant Churches were far too divided.

Of course since then (he died in 1992), all the stuff about pedophile priests and religious figures has hit the media fan (although he predicted that to me as well ... "I think you might become Catholic ... but after you do I think there'll be a pedophile crisis in the Catholic Church ... I think there's going to be a lot of them!"). Mind you it hasn't just been the Catholic Church, but since I believe it is the Church founded by Christ, then it's bound to cop the most worldly criticism.

If God's going to give us a revival, then He'll have to work around the pedophile crisis somehow.

He also said, in relation to the abortion holocaust, "If we keep going the way we are, I see nothing ahead of us but judgement", and that was in a sermon, most likely way back in the late 1980's. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

So it may be that if Australia has a revival, it may be in part because a judgement seems to be in the offing.

Now, if God wants to make trouble for Australia, there are several ways He could easily do so -

1. Climate change - right now we're having a bush fire crisis in Queensland and New South Wales, due to continuing drought and winds. There are at least 50 fires raging in each state. Our dam levels are dropping, and there is drought all over the place.

2. Religious conflict - While Australians are losing their religion, Asians are hanging onto theirs. Our nearest neighbour is Indonesia, with 264 million people, 10 times our population and predominantly Moslem. Fundamentalism is growing, and so is it's military strength.

3. Trade versus Military Allegiance - Our biggest trading partner is China. Our main ally is the USA. If things get really, really antsy between the two, which way do we go? Lose our main military ally, or lose our main trading partner?

4. Debt - Australia has the second highest housing debt in the world, after Switzerland. Morgan Stanley last year judged Australia to be the most exposed economy in the world to debt.

5. Petroleum supplies - We import 90% of our fuel from the volatile Middle East. We have about six weeks reserve in storage. One of the scenarios the old pastor quoted was "Suppose you get a middle eastern statesman who does a bit of fence building with his mates. Then he says to the West, 'Right boys, either you get Israel out of there or we turn off the taps (Oil)'. We'd all be broke in a week."

6. Multiculturalism - All very nice in theory, but if a war breaks out, how "Australian" will our new multi-cultural denizens feel. Will Moslem adherents for example fight for Australia, or for Islam if we are fighting an Islamic enemy (just one scenario)?

7. Military Service or the Lack thereof - Each year thousands of Australians make an expensive pilgrimage to Gallipoli in Turkey to celebrate the sacrifice of our military forebears. But we're not so keen on doing military service ourselves. The percentage is very small.

8. Health & Fitness - Less than a third of Australians are not overweight or obese. 1.7 million Australians have Diabetes (I'm one myself).

If God gives us a revival, I think it might include some writing on the wall. It would not be very hard for Him to do so. There are plenty of options for Him to choose from, while He does His usual trick of staying hidden, leaving us with a decision to make about faith.

What was sown, is what was and is being reaped.

As for a sign, for or as if to bring revival, Jesus said the only sign given this generation was the sign of Jonah 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a fish. (yes, 72 hours sign) So many reject His Word, it is 'almost' unbelievable how many, except He Said it ahead of time.....

This is a modification of my comment above viz.

5. Petroleum supplies - We import 90% of our fuel from the volatile Middle East. We have about six weeks reserve in storage. One of the scenarios the old pastor quoted was "Suppose you get a middle eastern statesman who does a bit of fence building with his mates. Then he says to the West, 'Right boys, either you get Israel out of there or we turn off the taps (Oil)'. We'd all be broke in a week."
Australia imports the equivalent of around 90 per cent of its refined fuel needs. This includes finished products such as petrol, as well as oil which Australia's four remaining refineries turn into finished product.

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We may not get 90% directly from the Middle East, but I lifted this from an ABC Article -

The US has 700 million barrels of oil in reserve. We've got 18 days of petrol, 22 days of diesel and 23 days of jet fuel

And this is where the current geopolitical tensions come into play.

Australia's biggest sources of refined products are Korea, Singapore, Japan, Malaysia and China.

Where do they get their oil? Most of them get it mainly from the Middle East.

Source of refined product % of oil from Middle East
Singapore 88
Japan 87
South Korea 81
Malaysia 42
China 30

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When it comes to fuel reserves, we're way behind the eight ball. Personally I think we should be setting up coal to petroleum conversion plants, since we have immense amounts of coal. It's all very well complaining about the resultant CO2 levels that might accrue as a result. If we can't get food on our table because our fossil fuel supply has dried up, we might found our priorities shift.

http://www.fao.org/3/i2454e/i2454e00.pdf

The end-use energy demand of the global food sector is around 32 percent of current total global final energy demand (Fig. 6).

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We would not be far off in that estimate in our own national case. Think of the food trucks you see on the road in all their forms, from livestock transports to supermarket lorries, to smaller specialty trucks and vans. And that's only part of the story - there's on-farm energy, fishing boats, packing and processing energy, storage energy, and all the rest.

4. Debt - Australia has the second highest housing debt in the world, after Switzerland. Morgan Stanley last year judged Australia to be the most exposed economy in the world to debt.

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I mentioned the following point in my post above. The following link is from the ABC News today.

Warnings over Australia's high level of household debt

Then there was my comment about climate change being a threat to Australia in particular.

1. Climate change - right now we're having a bush fire crisis in Queensland and New South Wales, due to continuing drought and winds. There are at least 50 fires raging in each state. Our dam levels are dropping, and there is drought all over the place.

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This is a morbid update, again from ABC News today.

'These fires will not go out': Dire warning as Queensland firefighters continue uphill battle

At the risk of sounding over the top, now there's a new threat. Aboriginals have launched a compensation claim, based on Native Title, which then PM Paul Keating brought in some years ago, in what he thought was no doubt an act of brilliance.

Indigenous leaders launch 'world's largest' compensation claim, worth $290 billion

This one claim alone would amount to about a quarter of Australia's GDP. If they're successful, nothing is surer that other aboriginal groups will do the same thing, and send the country broke.

I thought something like this would happen sooner or later. I had a sense that as a result Australia's currency would drop to about 18 cents in the American Dollar. But we'll see.

Occams Barber said:

It's ok.
I'm an atheist.
We all carry fire extinguishers.
OB

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Do you have one that lasts for eternity? I think not. I would offer you sympathy except for the fact that you choose to reject the truth. Your loss.

Bob Crowley said:

At the risk of sounding over the top, now there's a new threat. Aboriginals have launched a compensation claim, based on Native Title, which then PM Paul Keating brought in some years ago, in what he thought was no doubt an act of brilliance.

Indigenous leaders launch 'world's largest' compensation claim, worth $290 billion

This one claim alone would amount to about a quarter of Australia's GDP. If they're successful, nothing is surer that other aboriginal groups will do the same thing, and send the country broke.

I thought something like this would happen sooner or later. I had a sense that as a result Australia's currency would drop to about 18 cents in the American Dollar. But we'll see.

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Decades ago they used to joke about giving the country back to the aborigines. I think we should. Let them run the show. Then fall about laughing at the mess they make of it.

dqhall said:

China has 1.3 billion people. Most of them are atheist or agnostic. They made many children, not making any more land.

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You would be most surprised at the strength of Christianity in China. The government persecutes Christians, gaols leaders, shuts down churches and home based churches. The church is far stronger than the West because there are few fake Christians. Some make a pretence in order to spy for the state.

Occams Barber said:

The promise of security can be offered in many different ways. Pure Communism does the same thing by offering a different access to security via the promise of equality. In this case The State substitutes for God:

"From each according to his ability
To each according to his needs"
(Karl Marx)​

OB

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Yes, done by force. Communism is an abject failure. Have you read Animal Farm? It's based on the USSR's brand of communism.

Aussie Pete said:

You would be most surprised at the strength of Christianity in China. The government persecutes Christians, gaols leaders, shuts down churches and home based churches. The church is far stronger than the West because there are few fake Christians. Some make a pretence in order to spy for the state.

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Christianity is supposed to be strong when able.

The church in China has its own problems with spies and hypocrites.

The underground church in the USSR did not approve of pastors who had not been jailed for Christian activities. Some of these turned out to be evildoers.

One worker at Voice of the Martyrs had been jailed for illegal entry into Cuba. He was ransomed out of Cuba. He became the director of VOM, had a large family, divorced, was accused of child molestation, fled to a VOM warehouse and died of an apparent suicide.

dqhall said:

Christianity is supposed to be strong when able.

The church in China has its own problems with spies and hypocrites.

The underground church in the USSR did not approve of pastors who had not been jailed for Christian activities. Some of these turned out to be evildoers.

One worker at Voice of the Martyrs had been jailed for illegal entry into Cuba. He was ransomed out of Cuba. He became the director of VOM, had a large family, divorced, was accused of child molestation, fled to a VOM warehouse and died of an apparent suicide.

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Sure, I did say that some so-called Christians in China are spies, as they were in the USSR. "Tortured for Christ" gives a great deal of insight into church life during the communist era.

As an Englishman once said, so famous that I forget his name, the prospect of hanging wonderfully concentrates the mind. The prospect of suffering and loss sorts out the real and the false. The Western world is beginning to see a real price to pay for preaching the gospel. I believe that the "mark of the beast" may be a literal mark, but it is also the mark of those who bow at the altar of political correctness. No one can buy or sell without the mark. People's businesses are suffering because they refuse to bow to the homosexual lobby or pro abortion groups. Chick a fil has decided to throw principle under a bus in order to save its business.

I hope that the pseudo Christians decide either to get properly born again or disassociate themselves from the church. It will lead to the collapse of Christianity as we know it. Around 95% of church attenders are just that. They have no life of Christ. They are not the church.